Out of The Wilderness
Immediately upon the conclusion of the 2007 season, Lane Kiffin said: “This won
A few weeks earlier, Rob Ryan had this to say about his defense: “I thought we
Do you detect a difference in philosophies? One a fixer, the other an enabler, perhaps?
I don’t mean to hang a guy based on a few quotes, but you have to admit that Ryan’s words were ill conceived, if not completely delusional. At some point, you have to address the facts instead of just saying that’s “life in the big city.”
I’ve had enough of “life in the big city” over the past five years, haven’t you?
But before we go on, I would like to apologize for leaving all of you in the lurch these past few weeks by going AWOL from Raider Take. And I would like to thank the Mighty Memdf for a kick in the pants that motivated my return to the keyboard.
The truth is that I went on vacation, a vacation from everything—job, bills, life and even Raider Take. I went to the desert and played golf amid the cacti and wild javelinas, drank red wine with Mrs. Take and watched the sun descend over the Sonoran wilderness. It was a long time coming. I highly recommend the desert.
Upon my return, I was astonished to discover 500+ comments appended to my previous take. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your willingness to keep the home fires burning during my irresponsible and unannounced absence. Such is the greatness of the Raider Nation.
I was also surprised to discover the controversy about Rob Ryan’s alleged un-firing, or whatever you want to call it. Additionally, I was flummoxed by the reality that we need to fill serious holes at left and right tackle, center, wide receiver, defensive line, strong safety and cornerback, and possibly running back. After just 19 wins over five seasons, I’d like to think we’d be further ahead in the rebuilding business, wouldn’t you?
So I just went into avoidance mode. I glanced at your takes, I glanced at the stories, but generally remained disengaged over the past several days. Maybe it’s just a vacation hangover. Maybe it’s writer’s block. Or maybe I’m just waiting for a strong signal from Mars or
After winning one less game this year than we won last year, the Dolphins have already hired a new VP of football operations and a new general manager. The Raiders haven’t filled those positions because they still don’t exist in
In a recent Q&A with Jerry McDonald, Kiffin said what I’d been saying for weeks: “It’s not okay because we played some teams well and we won a couple divisional games. That’s not okay. This season was not a success…We’re going to work on that right now and we’re going to look at every single way we can to fix that.”
When asked directly if he was going to retain Rob Ryan (assuming he had a choice), Kiffin stated: “First of all, we haven’t made any decisions yet. Those will come pretty soon. Just like I said, with players and stuff, we’re still going to get all the information in and get it all together before we make any changes….We’re not worried about people’s feelings or any of that. We’re worried about winning. And we need to start winning. We need to do everything we can to put us in that position. So, we’ll look at everything.”
As far as I can tell, there are only three ways to look at the Ryan question: (1) Kiffin really wants to keep him; (2) Kiffin will get rid of him, but despite saying that decisions will come “pretty soon” and the fact that positions are already being filled across the NFL, has decided to wait to get rid of him for reasons we can only speculate; or (3) Kiffin wanted to get rid of him, but was overruled by Al Davis.
Now, let’s consider the first scenario. Are we to believe that Lane Kiffin really wants to retain a guy whom he inherited, whose unit ranked among the worst in the league, and who says things like “that’s life in the big city?” If you believe that, then put a tooth under your pillow tonight, because there’s a fairy on the way.
As for scenario number two, you can reverse engineer all sorts of explanations to prove the logic behind the Raiders, once again, dragging their feet on a critical decision while other teams act swiftly and decisively.
As for the third scenario, we really don’t want to go there, do we?
In other words, none of the scenarios is very palatable at this point. Or maybe I just spent too much time in the desert? What am I missing?
I’m not advocating that we rush to Ryan’s door with pitchforks and torches in hand. He has no doubt done his best, but doing your best isn’t always enough in the brutal competitive reality of the NFL. Ryan belongs on the hot seat. This is the NFL, not an after-school special.
Perhaps these reports of organizational dissention, however, are just fabrication? We’ve certainly witnessed enough media fabrication over the past six months.
Nevertheless, consider my three aforementioned scenarios, and tell me what I’m missing?
Perhaps I’m just late to the discussion and beating a dead horse with this Ryan business. But I would submit that this Ryan business is a window into the future of our team, as viewed through the lenses of control and decision making, which in turn have bearing on a lot of things, including the upcoming draft.
Or perhaps I’m jumping the gun. Perhaps it will all come clear and make sense soon. But don’t be too hard on me. After 19 wins over five seasons, I’m just anxious for more method and less madness. You can create justifications for every decision (or non decision) made over the past five years, but you can’t justify the results, and the results put the decisions in question, which makes the justifications questionable.
Anyhow, that’s my take, and I’m sticking to it, at least until you beat it out of me with your retorts. I have returned from the wilderness. But the real question is: Have the Raiders?
posted by Raider Take at 9:44 PM
502 Comments:
Bama7
RT, you seem to be containing some anger. The same anger I feel about my team. It seems painfully clear that Kiffen wants his own guy there, but has, like so many before him, run into Al. Al's interference.
RT, you have a way of taking on this topic gingerly, trying not to inflame our board, but I sense you are as frustrated with Al as I am.
Well I guess the mission has been scrubbed. Welcome back Take.
Unless I've missed something in your three scenarios the piece missing is "no decision has been made". Or, a decision has been made but not implemented. Either of those cases would explain the lack of public pronouncements.
However, if you want to read anything into their statements. "We'll get this fixed." and "That's life in the big city." To me the latter would appear to come from the person least happy with his situation. Someone who knows his job is possibly in jeopardy. But, that's just speculation on my part.
We all share your frustration. The last five seasons are totally new territory for long term Raider fans. You have given us a forum for us to discuss and argue our differing points of view as to the source of the problems and their potential solutions. And, for that we all here (except for that one moron) owe you our thanks.
Arkansas Raider, I couldn't get a TOW, just a couple of old 70mm rocket pods.
I suggest we continue with the mission with a change of objective. I suggest the name Operation Rolling Moss.
H
RT- Welcome back! We all awaited your return with eager anticipation. The 600+ posts represent our version of Motel 6... “we’ll keep the light on for ya.”
Once again, I am in full agreement with your point of view (specifically, we “can’t justify the results, and the results put the decisions in question...!”)
The sheer refusal to fill key executive positions at Raiders HQ is mind-boggling. Al Davis, once heavyweight champion of the world, doesn’t know when to quit and just sit back and enjoy the sport that he has helped shaped (ala Larry Holmes, George Foreman, and others).
After waiting five years for the smallest of sparks, we finally have a small fire in Lane Kiffin; but not without controversy and possible dissension, and now with widespread concern the small fire is being doused by the man himself.
Out of respect for the man, I must reserve ultimate judgement, and can only hope and pray that the right buttons are being pushed (placing Kiffin in total control).
Bama7
Sorry, NY Raider... I misspelled kiffin again (1st post). I actually have a similar name that people have misspelled my entire life... getting the last vowel wrong. I should know better.
RT,
That was scary man, we thought you were going to get whacked or something. These guys were planning a mission to come save you! It was almost as strange as the disappearance Pantyraider somewhere in the jungles of Asia (I think that's what he said).
Finally, it doesn't take 3 min. to load and scroll the page. :)
Psycho
Welcome back, RT!
Ryan came aboard as a guy who believed in multiple looks, use of the 3-4, smart blitzing. It was all there on his resume, from his college coaching days to his Buddy Ryan pedigree to his work in New England under Belichick.
Fast forward a few years and all of a sudden he's a 4-3, man-to-man guy who rarely blitzes. Just like all of our other defensive coordintators. What a coincidence. It's to his credit that he made it work pretty well at times.
My point? Kiffin deserves to choose his defensive coordinator, be it Ryan or somebody else. But if that person is forced to abandon his own philosophy and adapt Al's philosophy, it will just be more of the same.
You left out #4.
Kiffin told Al he wanted to get rid of SOB, and they talked about it, and Al talked him out of it.
Not necessarrily overruled, but lets just assume that Kiff trusts Al just a little bit (I think that's one of the reasons he jumped on the job, becuase he is so green and has Al to lean on).
That said, mad stork makes a good point.
Man, I need too get me a handle :-(
Welcome back RT.
i agree with mad stork. we may as well not have a dc if als calling the shots. i remember sob using the 3-4 in his 1st year and it was a disaster because al gave him 260-275 lb lb"s to work with. if were to ever have a good defense which we can NEVER be a winner without then al MUST take his hands off. every playoff team worth its salt doesnt play a straight 4-3 with no blitzing and man coverage.
H, it's possible that no decision has been made, but if so, this would follow in the slothful vein of no decision having been made regarding Barry Sims...after seven years.
It's hard to believe that Kiffin would still be on the fence about something so pivotal as the DC position. If a decision has been made but not yet implemented, I think it would still have to fall under one of my three scenarios, even if it remains under wraps.
I can't tell you guys what it means to have you concerned about my mental health and well being. Memdf even called to make sure I hadn't croaked.
I still can't fully explain my absence. It wasn't like I was just sitting here keeping tabs on everything, reading all the articles, polishing my next take. I literally stopped following the Raiders for abut 10 days. Cold turkey. No explanation. But I have some ideas for making sure it doesn't happen again, and it involves your help. Stay tuned.
And what did I miss during my absence? Inaction in Alameda. Is it even possible to miss inaction? If action doesn't happen, then you technically can't miss it, right?
Take,
I was just throwing that out as a possible scenario. The same with dedisions made but not implemented.
Just a different angle. By the way, how'd you shoot?
Mad Stork 83, I find some irony in your post "Fast forward a few years and all of a sudden he's a 4-3, man-to-man guy who rarely blitzes. Just like all of our other defensive coordintators."
I believe there are many here who will back me up on this. Virtually the entire time Hendricks was with the team we ran a 3-4 with a lot of blitzing. In fact, Hendricks was one of the primary blitzers.
They did try the 3-4 when Ryan was brought on board. In fact, I believe that was the primary reason he was hired. But, for several reasons, it was a failure. There was much public ourcry to go back to the 4-3. Which they did. Oh, what a fickled nation we can be.
So, your statement is inaccurate. If you dissagree, please show me where I am wrong.
H
Take,
One more thing. As for Barry Sims, I think that is a fete accompli. But, for cap reasons nothing will be done before March 1st. So, there's no reason for the media to be all over that one.
H
Hah! My point is that the fact that we're even still talking about Barry Sims in 2008 is remarkable, is it not?
You know, I shot well. I feared that I would blow a bunch of money and get all excited about playing this fancy course, then proceed to bang balls off houses. But it actually went great. I missed a short putt for par on the first hole (those greens are wicked fast in bone dry Arizona), then parred the next one. It went downhill from there, but not too far downhill, which for me is like Tiger Woods shooting 64.
Bama7
3-4, 4-3...whatever... the Nation just wants the S&B to utilize either of these schemes with the proper personnel, in the proper positions, and with a DC that's his own man. It's not fickle, it's called running the ship right.
I think that the many are getting tired of the same. We have given organization the benefit of doubt for so long that pattern of getting rid of coaches, not supporting coaches, having Plan B always available in coaching staff is troublesome.
Mike Taylor Raider PR man came out VERY quickly with the we support Ryan memo but nothing on Kiffin. I find it interesting that Kiffin called out the Whole Building after the last game when saying this unacceptable. I think many people in the Raider building are way to comfortable, much like state workers. Loyal to a fault we buy it every year but something must change in the organization because season tickets bills are coming in three weeks.
Barry Sims is still here because he's managed to beat out every person brought in to challenge him for the position. As disgusting as that sounds, it happens to be true. Free Agents, top draft picks, Sims has beaten them out. He may be the #32 LT in the league, but so far we've been unable to bring in anyone as high as #31.
RT, you've been very proud to mention the three division titles and the Super Bowl appearance in this decade, but I haven't heard you give Sims credit for playing well during those years.
And, as usual, I understand this will lead to complaints that I'm defending one of the worst players in the history of the sport. I too think Sims should be replaced, but I also believe in a certain amount of perspective.
I have no idea what Kiffin thinks of Ryan or Davis. And neither does anybody else. I have no idea what is said behind closed doors, and neither does anybody else. In order to even believe half of what the media says, you have to believe that Kiffin is an immature, tantrum throwing, control freak with a 4-12 NFL record. That's not the impression I get from him.
As for Ryan's lack of skill at hostile press conferences, I'll give him a pass due to his inexperience. Raider assistants don't give very many.
As for Kiffin's recent silence, all I'll say is that Kiffin said that he needed to REVIEW EVERYTHING before making decisions, and immediately after that statement he was handed the Senior Bowl. I'll speculate that Kiffin is a wee bit busy, although nobody else seems to think there is any evidence of that. Far more people seem to feel that Kiffin's first priority is to answer the articles of Timmy Kawakami.
The only thing we'd be hearing about right now, under any circumstances (and even with a team that conducts its business with complete transparency), is the search for a new coach. But that is only true if we are actually LOOKING for a new coach. And if we're not looking for a new coach, it doesn't mean that a coach won't be replaced, because we may already have FOUND that coach. It just might be that the team has not yet been able to come up with a settlement agreement with Ryan (or somebody else).
Five years of losing is very new territory for me. But even after five years of losing, it doesn't seem logical to panic over the lack of team communications in January. Maybe after five years the nation has become accustomed to intense coaching searches in January and they miss that kind of activity. I've grown up with the Raiders, and during all of their winning years you never heard anything from the Raiders between the final game of the season and the Pro Bowl. Very often you didn't hear anything until about March 1st.
Would it destroy you all if we retained Ryan, but wound up completely rebuilding our front seven?
I guess my point to all of this is that usually the team doesn't say very much, and our experience with the media is that they seek to entertain, not to inform. The only really reliable information we get is from what the team actually does. They wouldn't be showing much right now unless they were ACTIVELY seeking a coach. Even if they wind up hiring a GM, you wouldn't likely hear about it until the contract was to be signed within 24 hours.
I don't expect to hear anything substantive until after the Super Bowl. When Kiffin interviews at the Senior Bowl, I expect he will focus on the Senior Bowl because that's the senior player's show and not the Raiders.
By the way, welcome back, RT. It was a perfect time for you to take a vacation.
http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/
638616.html
hey blanda, i guess we cross jason off your list of favs forever with this one eh pal?
but this article isn't an "assumption" of what davis would do, it's the truth - he blames everyone but himself!
Things in Raiderland continuously repeat a terribly irritating cycle. Offseason begins with claims that there will be revolutionary changes that will finaly bring us back to a competitive level and this cycle always ends with disappointment followed by brainwashing. Then the nightmare repeats. We are currently in the phase where we all learn (but how could we ever forget?) that Al Davis has a stranglehold on all activity in Oakland. I recently learned that Al invented stubbornness and he continues to refuse to submit to the overwhelmingly obvious need for change.
Don't get me wrong, I am not an Al hater. I respect what he has done, and what he is still capable of doing. But didn't his mom ever tell him that two heads (or three, four, etc.) are better than one. He needs to bring in more help (i.e. VP of football operations, a fully functional GM) so that his butter isn't spread so thin.
For my last point, I would like to discuss the Ryan saga. I love this guy too. But he's like the son that everyone loves but doesn't live up to his potential. But can we blame him? He is running a defense that Al forced upon him. We must remember that he is a 3-4 guy by nature. Will we be any better off with a different DC that will be forced to run the same defense without the love and dedication of the players that Ryan is famous for having?
My overall point is that coaches must be allowed to coach. Change cannot happen if the same old cycle continues. Al Davis needs to pass the torch and let go of the pride that wont let him trust anyone enough to make his/our team great.
On thing I noticed about Norv during the wild card game, and the subsequent divisional playoff game, was that we was showing emotion and command, barking at the officials, getting in people's faces...And I don't think it's a coincidence that his team has shown simultaneous fire.
When Norv was in Oakland, all we saw was the criminy-sakes grimace.
Remember Art Shell just vacantly standing there as the refs dropped our pants on that ridiculous "forward pass" call?
On that note, when Warren Sapp was embarrassing the team in Jacksonville, I would have liked to see Kiffin step a few yards onto the field and holler at Sapp to get his butt off the field instead of just standing there with his arms folded.
Say what you will about Gruden, but at least you knew where the sh*** stopped.
I hope that Kiffin can grow into that role of visible, vocal leader.
Everyone raves about Tony Dungy, but his mild-mannered approach has been largely a failure come playoff time. Same with Wade Phillips.
As the saying goes, when you treat the players like men, that's an invitation for them to act like boys.
Scorpio, why is it you never actually bother to follow up with things? In Jones' subsequent article he practically appoligizes, says he likes Al Davis, but just took the time to have a little fun at Davis' expense.
My question for you is, do you really want Turner and Moss back? The only difference you see in their current situations is Al Davis?
Take, glad to hear it. My last time out it was cold and wet but I shot one of my best rounds.
Bama, it is fickled when folks scream for change, then scream to change back.
However, your point about proper personnel in proper position is well taken. It's something Blanda and I have mentioned on several occasions. He more eloquent than I.
Scorpio, for the article to be "truth" Jason Jones would have to be clairvoyant. It's just his supposition based on his belief. It might be well grounded, but in the end it's still mind reading.
Now as far as a GM type. Though there is no such title within the organization, we have had such types in the past. Bruce Allen being one.
So, what am I about to say. Well, I actually have a nominee for such a position. There is a former Raider toiling away in the Green Bay personnel department. One Reggie McKenzie. He had a twin that played for Washington.
He is Director of Pro Player Personnel. He was totured by Ron Wolfe who cut his teeth under Al Davis. McKenzie is credited with being influential in many of the FA acquisitions on this years team.
Just the right type to "attack free agency" as Kiffin put it. Kiffin working the college side, McKenzie working the FA side.
McKenzie probably won't leave GB (family considerations), but it would be my fantasy personnel team.
Al would still be in charge. After all he is the owner. But he needs some assistance. This might be a team he would trust. We all know how he feels about former Raiders.
H
someone has to help me out with this.
i've been watching the playoff's and it seems to my untrained eye that all the teams are using a cover 2 scheme.
also, i have seen a lot of linebackers in qb's faces during these playoff games.
can this be what other teams in the nfl call, "blitzing" ??
if this is true, it really won't matter who the DC is for the raiders unless, and until, they step into modern times.
Blanda,
Could you provide the link to that subsequent article. I'm having trouble finding it?
H
H, as usual you bring up the best points. All this talk about how Al Davis needs a GM (or at least someone just to help him out), and everyone seems to have forgotten that Al Davis mentor some of the best GMs in the business while they were giving Al a little help.
Let me run three names by you: Al LoCasale; Bruce Allen; Ron Wolfe. The most recent name doesn't spark a pleasant memory, and that is Mike Lombardi. I'd point out that of the recent seasonal losing streak, Lombardi held the position for the first 4 years. The latest in that position is Mark Jackson. And it seems to me, at least until Timmy started trying to entertain us, folks around here thought we were on the rise this year in spite of a 4-12 record.
The Raiders have never had an official GM other than Al Davis; but they have always had a defacto GM called Director of Pro Player Personnel. I guess it's the OFFICIAL TITLE that changes everything. Shakespeare was, apparently, dead wrong. "That which we call a rose, by any other name..." would smell like a turd.
It's here, H.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/raiders/
RT-
Great to have you back and what a return! Excellent take.
"Drinks all around!"
Mike Lombardi, added...
I find it interesting that in a year when the donkeys were expected to rise like cream, Mike Lombardi started working for them for free. That's right. He's doing everything for them for free that we paid him to do. However, it has been widely reported that the reason he's working for free is that he feels it strengthens his case to pry some money from Al Davis. Birds of feather (Shanahan)... you know how it goes.
I've also stated before (accusations of "conspiracy theory" aside) that I think that Lombardi is the source of much of what we've been hearing from people in the media (who haven't talked to Kiffin directly). Lombardi had many friends in the media (Peter King included), and he's recent enough with the Raiders to be able to claim that he has inside sources. Think about it. It just makes sense.
Blanda,
Thanks for the link. I think Jason is reading my post.
"One area the Raiders defensive tackles were especially bad at were occupying blockers. Too often opposing offensive linemen ran freely and blocked linebackers and even safeties."
I believe I've said nearly the exact same thing on several occasions. He and I are in agreement DT's are primary on defense.
Thanks again. And thanks for the compliment.
H
"As for Barry Sims, I think that is a fete accompli." -h
A fait accompli, is generally considered irreversible. I think that we've seen far too many feints and end-arounds to consider any Raider decision "irreversible", lol!
As Take stated, it's rather amazing that Sims remains a topic in 2008. I wonder if he's been slippin' some "Slo-" into other tackles' "MoJo" before practice... hmmm... Slo-Mo-Jo....
Mark Jackson, added...
It's also worthy of pointing out that "defacto GM" Mark Jackson was hired by Kiffin, not Al Davis.
I'd also point out that there was considerable change, this season, on the offensive side of the ball. When Kiffin says that the thinking was that the defense was solid and that figuring out how to run the ball on offense would bring about a great deal of change, one has to believe that Kiffin had no problem with retaining Ryan and the rest of the defensive staff.
It could be that Kiffin still has no problem with Ryan, but he's developed a problem with many of the defensive players.
This is something we're not going to know until March (unless there is a staff change before that).
RT, good to have ya back, firing away on all cylinders.
I agree with Blanda's earlier take that any decision is awaiting from watching film in the filmroom, making evaluations, and implementing changes. If Ryan goes, I think we look to Jacksonville (Mark Duffner or Ray Hamilton), USC (Ken Norton Jr), or Tampa (Raheem Morris) for his replacement. You know if they let Ryan go (who I think should stay), my choice would be Ken Norton Jr.
We do need a different defensive scheme. It's called a man zone, read-n-react. It allows the corners to man up to the WRs, and the rest of the defense to make in play adjustments to how the play unfolds, including zone blitzing.
raider00, not every playoff team is running the cover-2. Indy does, and so did Tampa. New England, San Diego, Jacksonville, New York, and Green Bay run a similar defense I described above.
If there is one thing for sure, the Special Teams coach Brian Schneider should go. I called around and checked my sources on that, and they all agree. Ed Hokuli's on his way to Austin, so I can feel his muscles for that "reported story."
Interesting what you say, Nate. My recollection is a man/zone, read & react is what Bresnahan used to run. He ran it all the way through Callahan's 4-12 disaster. We had the personnel to make Bresnahan's theories work up until that year, then we had a complete fall-off of personnel, and Ryan attempted the 3-4 the following year.
Funny thing is, I now think we have the personnel for Bresnahan's defense. So you might be right.
Hey H, you're absolutely right about the 3-4 being the base defense in the early 80's (over 20 years ago, mind you)!
Having said that, Davis has stated very clearly on a number of occasions that he is directly involved in the defense. He even joked at one of the (many) "introducing the new coach" press conferences about a comment Bill Belichick made to him. When Davis interviewed Belichick for the head coaching position in 1998 Belichick asked "what do you need me for"? It's no secret in the NFL that the Raiders defensive coordinator does things Al's way, period.
As for Ryan's installation of the 3-4 in 2004, I'm sure that was done with Al's approval. But he failed to recognize that we didn't have the personnel for it, and switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 would have required patience. As Al has none, he pulled the plug and it's back to his way.
I don't want this argument to be about the merits of the 3-4 vs. the 4-3. It's really about Al not giving coaches the latitude to do their jobs. Giving a guy one year to install his system then pulling the plug when you don't immediately go from the outhouse to the penthouse is counterproductive. That's how you become the worst team in football for five years running.
The elephant in the room is Al Davis, let's not pretend otherwise.
To suggest that the Raiders don't have weird ways of doing things is just wishful thinking.
In fact, we all love the weirdness...when it works. That's what's always separated the Raiders from the rest of the NFL.
But after 19 wins over five seasons, you've got to take a hard look at the weirdness, do we not?
Weird is great when you're Angelina Jolie. Not so great when you're Courtney Love.
I've always said you can't blame Al Davis for the bad years and deny him credit for the good ones. I've given him as much credit as anybody. But it cuts both ways.
Let's not act like 19 wins in five seasons is remotely acceptable. It's not. It's an EPIC confluence of bad decisions. Period. In any organization, it all starts at the top. If I hire awful people who make bad decisions, or re-sign awful players who can't hack it, that's on me.
That's why Robert Kraft gets credit for building a winner and Bill Bidwill doesn't, regardless of how personally involved they are in the day-to-day operations. Sometimes not being involved is is the best decision of all.
What do the four teams playing this weekend have in common? Strong, visible GMs. Not guys with mysterious titles, undocumented responsibilities and unconfirmed authority.
Either Al Davis has an active hand in the staffing, signing, draft and operations or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then we must conclude that Mark Jackson and Lane Kiffin are the ones really steering the ship these days. Do you believe it's the latter or the former?
As I've stated I'm no longer arguing about Al Davis. Everyone here knows my feelings.
Nate, you beat me to it. I was going to say GB doesn't run a prue Tampa-2. They do a lot of man on both sides of the field. That's why they wanted Woodson.
If the Patsies make it to the Super Bowl and the Packers make it, remember Woodson has shut Moss down in the past. I remember one of Moss' very few successes was on a push off where Woodson was flagged.
As far as any changes goes with staff, personnel or players, nothing will happen for at least a week or two.
Senior Bowl practice starts Monday and Kiffin and Ryan are both in Mobile getting ready.
This gives us plenty of time to beat our heads against the wall while the media makes up more crap and rumors about what is going on during Senior Bowl week.
I still have a few friends down there, maybe I should call around and see what I can dig up.
H
Welcome back RT, I don't post often, however I still check the site daily for updates. Though the season turned out the way I expected it was still a rather bleak one at that anyway glad to have you return now I have your blogs here to share in my frustrations and provide insight.
Wow.
I bet nobody ever thought we might end up rooting for C-Wood again after he drained the coffers during his injury plagued season then bolted town.
And you KNOW he's got feelings for the patsies. I used to have that picture and the page from the rule book with the tuck rule circled hanging on my office wall.
The rule clearly states "while trying to tuck the ball". The video clearly shows he had it 'tucked' as much as you can 'tuck' a ball that you are holding at shoulder level.
Sorry to bring THAT part of the past up guys. I get pretty wound up when I think about it.
blanda, david explains my thoughts on your reply.
take, its obviously the former.
Take,
You're right on again with your assessments of Al. Either he gets both good/bad credit, or none at all.
But here is something that we may be missing as well. Al has had his "appearances" in the media the past few years, as he says, "to show you guys I'm still alive and in good health." What is also relevent is the fact that he is the figure missing from day-to-day at the Alameda facilities.
Maybe, just maybe, he is letting his son run things for awhile with his hand loosely on the leash; and that is why things have been array the past few years. Just a theory.
I also loved the blast of "Weird is great when you're Angelina Jolie. Not so great when you're Courtney Love." That was EPIC!
Scrambled eggs anyone?
I, like H, have previously stated that I'm done arguing about Al Davis. I haven't been very good at that promise, but I intend to do better. There is one point RT is trying to make that I'd like to answer first.
I think the difference between me and most others is that I never gave Al credit for EVERYTHING, even in their best years. I disagreed that John Madden was just Al's puppet. Ditto Tom Flores and every other Raider HC. I acknowledged the contributions of people like Al LoCasale, Bruce Allen, Ron Wolfe, and now Mark Jackson.
So you'd be right, Take, if your straw-man had ever actually met the Wizard of Oz. For me, he hasn't. I don't have to put all of the blame on Al because I never gave him all of the credit.
I view my position here as one who never gave Al all of the credit, arguing with those who think he deserves all of the blame. While there may be those who thinks Al only deserves all of the credit, I've never met any of them.
As far as those teams remaining in the playoffs, it is obvious that they are doing thing right - at the moment - or is it your belief that those teams will be in the playoffs through perpetuity? Is it your belief that we will only get to the playoffs when we significantly mimic the teams that are currently there? Is it your position, Take, that no team currently in the playoffs has had a bad stretch of years?
Yes, it is true that when a team fall on some hard times, everyone in the organization during that bad stretch can take some of the blame. But I keep only hearing one name called out.
RT-
Angelina Jolie...
Courtney Love...
That was classic.
Aren't you glad you are back?
This is a great discussion. Reminds you of your golf game abit?
;-)
Oh, and trust me on this... I got every bit as argumentative back in the day when people refused to give Madden credit, Flores credit, and even Gruden credit.
Would you say that every Raider team, through the years, has had the same personality under each HC?
The biggest free agent will be a certain receiver from New England with ties to Oakland.
But don’t look for Randy Moss to be back.
--Jason Jones
OH MY GOSH!
i'll bet in al's little world, he'll probably make a move for moss! after all, he didn't want to let go of moss anyway. but who's gonna coach him? kiffin got rid of him and if al brings him back, kiffin'll prol say enough is enough and move on!
Thanks, Scorpio, for making my point.
it was a JOKE blanda! hellllo?
With big titles (such as owner or CEO) come big responsibilities and big rewards.
When an organization or company sucks for an extended period, it's not entirely the CEO's fault, but the CEO still gets axed, because it happened under his or her watch.
Similarly, when an organization or company excels, there are all sorts of managers and employees who helped make it happen, but it's the CEO who walks home with the $20 million in stock options and bonuses.
There's much more to Apple Computer than Steve Jobs. But who is most responsible for Apple's recent success? And if Apple suddenly starts putting out crappy products, who will deserve the most heat?
It's not a matter of taking all of the credit or all of the blame for good or bad years. It's just accepting the responsibility and accountability, and the glory or infamy, that comes with the executive territory.
This is just a fact of business life. Sustained success and sustained failure don't exist in a vacuum.
So it is your prediction then, that Apple will win the Super Bowl this year?
Bama7
RT great points all day long (madstork 83, kudos as well). But you'll never convince H or Blanda that anything is wrong with having a "GM for life".
And we probably have a new problem now as the playoffs are winding down: With C-wood doing reasonably well in GB and Moss lighting it up in New England and Norv making it as far as he has... Al is likley to get even more stubborn and controlling, believing that all those successes could have been in Oakland had people just listened to him better and/or been able to successfully implement those pieces in Oakland... pieces he so cleverly provided. Once again it'll be everyone else's fault and Al will retreat deeper into his own thoughts that his ideas are best, and less influence from others is the way to go.
We can only hope not.
If Kiffin is allowed to bring in a new DC and you can clearly tell is his own choice, then I'll gve Al credit for bending. Or if we start making some moves for some blue-collar, tough front seven players on D (and not track star DB's), then I'll think Al is bending.
And no, I don't think that just because the four teams playing this week have defined GMs means that these teams will excel in perpetuity.
I do believe it means, however, that they'll never win a mere 19 games total over the course of five consecutive seasons.
Every team eventually encounters bad times and off years, but a half decade without reaching the six-win mark? That's a remarkable accomplishment in this age of parity.
Yes, I think that the iPods will crush the Zunes to become Super Bowl Champions!
I didn't realize Moss was due to be a FA already.
So that might be a silver lining in his great success this year. One of two things will happen:
1) He will demand a lot of money from the Pats and try to squeeze out as much as he can get from his last big contract before retirement. Eventually the Pats have to lose a game or two and end their eternal locker room contemptness, which is keeping Moss happy & motivated (except when he's beating up girlfriends). Eventually they'll see adversity, which Moss will multiply by a factor of 81, lose a step or two, and basically be a waste of space with a huge contract.
2) The exact same thing as scenerio #1, except Moss will be on a different team. This would leave Brady less effective. Not to mention their aging D will decline. They'll fall about as hard as we did when we lost our many great veterans after the Super Bowl. Yeah, they'll have Brady for a while but so what. The Bengals have Palmer too.
Psycho
You see, this is the problem I'm having. Several times today I've mentioned Al LoCasale, Ron Wolfe, Bruce Allen, Mike Lombardi, and Mark Jackson. All have been referred to as the "defacto GM." Al has had one of these guys in most years he's operated.
Is it your problem that none of these guys ever got the official title of GM? Do you think that the Raiders would be better if those guys were given the official title?
As I see it, as long as Al Davis is alive and he still has an office at Raider HQ, it doesn't matter what title these guys hold because Al controls everything! Most don't seem to want to acknowledge that these guys even exist.
LoCosale was brought in when Davis became managing partner; Wolfe came in when Flores took over as HC. Allen came to the Raiders when Gruden became HC, then Lombardi took over for Allen when Gruden went to TB and took Allen with him. Kiffin, himself, brought in Mark Jackson. My feeling as to why each of these guys was brought in was to assist the HC with finding the kind of personnel the HC felt he needed.
I know such suggestions are considered sacrilege to all who want to blame Al for whatever they think he's guilty of. It just doesn't seem to occur to anybody that there were a few years between Wolfe and Allen (around the time the Raiders moved back to Oakland and they weren't very good); and that of the last five year stretch, in four of those years we had Lombardi (and neither Turner, Shell, nor Kiffin cared much for him). Lombardi left for Denver and Denver slipped below expectations, while we brought in Kiffin and Jackson and have showed signs of coming back.
I'm not trying to bother anybody with EVIDENCE here. But it does seem to me that there are several here who will only be happy when Al Davis dies.
Raider Nate.. are you trying to give the IAAFers heart attacks?
If SOA (Son of Al) is actually the one calling all of the shots the past few years, not only does it suck for them to no longer blame it all on Al, it would mean that they would have to pine for him after he croaks because his son is someone they consider an IMBECILE!!!
HILARIOUS!!!
PS Welcome back RT!
raidernate 75,
thanks for the info on the playoff teams D. it all looked like cover 2to me, but hey, whatever it is, it's working, it's aggressive, it's very unraider like.
if ryan is coming back, and it looks at this point, like he is, the raiders D must change.
we can't have light weight DT's. we can't have DE's that rush up the field, even on running plays, and are fooled by every misdirection play known to man.
we can't have LB's that wait for the play to come to them. they must attack.
i ask every one to go back and look at old raider highlights. you will see hendricks, martin, nelson, millen, and others, practically living in the opponents backfield.
it's called blitzing, attacking, and winning.
why have the raiders forgotten how it's done ??
finally we must mixed our coverages in the secondary. use man, some zone, cover 2, whatever else to confuse the opponent.
anything is better then doing the same thing all the time...and failing.
but change is change. there's no substitute for change. if ryan returns, it'll probably be more of the same, sorry, crap, and that's too bad.
Bama, this is not an argument, this is a request. There are enough post from Blanda and I over the last year. Please go and find the ones where we have said nothing is his fault and he deserves all the credit.
Because that is what you are insinuating in your post concerning Blanda and I. Now for a question. If we say you are saying everything a Al's fault, would that be correct?
If you can't find the former and the answer to the latter is yes the only remaining question is who is looking at the situation with blinders on?
H
Speaking of evidence, is anyone actually responsible for the chain of events and decisions that has resulted in 19 wins over five seasons, which ranks among the worst five-season streaks in the modern era of of the NFL, or did this just happen in a vacuum?
Let me put this in perspective. The expansion Tampa Bay Buccaneers, considered one of the sorriest teams in the modern era, won 22 games in their first five years, inclusive of a 0-14 record in their first year.
Go look at the records of the Cardinals and Lions over the past 30 years. Neither have had less than 20 wins over a five year period.
It's not about the draft, the GM position, the quarterback position or any one thing. It's about all of these things.
As far as the 19 wins in 5 years... I don't try and dwell on it much. Why?
For one thing... a lot of those losses are due to our MVP QB BREAKING HIS NECK and there wasn't anyone to replace him worth a shit. If we coulda got a few more years out of Gannon, I think we would have been pretty good 4-5 years ago. Secondly, I am only interested in recent history... there's lotsa teams that suck ass in the NFL (especially when they don't have a QB). I am only concerned in FIXING what is broken, not why or how it got broken.
Right now, we look on the right track. We signed a QB to fix our QB problem, and brought in a HC to fix our main coaching problem.
These are the two biggest keys in the NFL IMO. Now if Kiffin gets pissed off and leaves soon, and Russell turns out to be a bust, then I will be right there with everyone that is ready to jump off a bridge because we don't win enough games.
Until then, I remain optimistic.
In order to fix something, it's helpful to figure out who broke it in the first place, and what they are doing DIFFERENTLY to fix it.
I just can't shrug my shoulders about a five-year performance that ranks among the worst in the modern era of the NFL. This is the RAIDERS we're talking about!!!
Our slogan isn't Blind Commitment to Optimism. It's Commitment to Excellence.
As far a SOB, I don't think Kiffin/Al are complete morons... I'm pretty sure they see what needs to be fixed the same way we do.
I don't think it would take too much for SOB to call a few more blitzes and be more aggressive, especially if we load up the defense with some more players... maybe there simply wasn't enough communication between SOB and Kiffin, and Al simply stepped in and said that the easiest fix is still in house???
Once again... nobody knows... my guesses are just as good as the IAAFers, or most of the mediots, for that matter.
RT... HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS ISN'T BEING DONE EXACTLY????
How do you know things are not being fixed from the top down?
Pulease. The vacation hangover has killed all your levity.
I think I need a vacation again... RT needs to change the name of this site to "Raider fans crying over spilled milk."
See ya folks!!!!
Gary, that's like asking the SFPD in 1976 if they're sure the Zodiac had stopped killing people.
Look, all I've got is the crime scene. That's the best evidence I've got about the state of the Raiders. It's up to you and Blanda to convince me that true reform is afoot.
I sure hope that things are being fixed from the top down, since it's long overdue. You don't get to this point by accident.
P.S. Don't worry, I'm levitating just fine.
The 2 biggest things that have been done to fix this mess is to hire Kiffin and draft Russell.
The leadership of the HC and the play of the QB are the central building blocks to any successful team.
Kiffin & Russell are in the position to make the biggest positive impact toward the franchise.
Of course this is contingent upon Kiffin having the necessary authority to hire/fire his staff and Russell having the necessary weapons to shine.
However this beginning phase of rebuilding will be a house of cards if Kiffin bolts after 2008.
The absolute key to making this all work is the relationship between Al and Kiffin. If the relationship is built on trust and respect the Raiders will continue to improve each season. If the relationship is based on power plays, poor communication, and an unshared vision, it is doomed to fail.
PatriotsDynasty
Welcome back RaiderTake. Glad you have come out of the woodwork in time to watch the Patriots destroy the surfer boy Chargers this Sunday at the Razor. We are going to beat them so badly, that they will limp into 2008 so beaten, bruised and demoralized that maybe the Raiders will be able to squeak out a win over them. I have already had Raider fans in my area tell me they are cheering for the Patriots this Sunday because they hate the Chargers so badly. So consider this a favor from your favorite team in the red white and blue. We are going to stomp a mudhole in those surfer boys and walk it dry. And we are going to make Norv cringe so badly that a few extra pock marks may form in that crater face of his. And if Al was smart, he would be taking notes on how a real team operates, and maybe, just maybe, he can use the blueprint to sneak out a win against the Chargers next season. But knowing Al he is too busy poring over the 40 times of the Division II CB's that just played in the East West Shrine Game!
Welcome back RT!!
I think your extended silence spoke volumes. One thing I appreciate about your blog is that you consistently look for answers and accountability. The whole point about a GM/director of player personnel is that at the very least we have someone accountable for the direction of the team. Without such an authority, we're left at the end of the season with a myriad of questions and lots of speculation. Hiring Kiffin was the first step in the right direction, but do we really need to wait til March to make more moves because it's the Raider way? There's a significant difference between panic and the sense of urgency that 4-12 teams develop seeking improvement.
Take- You’re obviously back, and well rested.
Blanda, IMO, the closest thing to a GM on your list was probably Bruce Allen; however, Allen was primarily a capologist for the Raiders. Al LoCasale was Davis’ confidant, and Mike Lombardi (a/k/a “The Mole”) simply inherited the position vacated by Allen when he left for Tampa. Mark Jackson has been given no significant authority (that you can be sure). At the end of the day, there has been only one GM, and his name ain’t Reggie Hammond.
Gary- I agree, Gannon breaking his neck was the start of a world of problems for us, including poor decisions regarding his replacement. KFC is the anti-Gannon, and we plucked Aaron “winless as a Raider” Brooks out of N.O.’s trash dumpster after they signed Brees, who was available for the taking. Brooks is still working on the "Randy Ratio." Confirmed sources tell me Brooks emails Tuck Brady twice a day with suggestions.
is anyone here an espn insider? i was wondering what todd mcshay said in his article today re: the draft....
Take,
"It's not about the draft, the GM position, the quarterback position or any one thing. It's about all of these things."
That's my point exactly. It's all of those things. It's not a single individual or a single entity. Someone must make the ultimate decision and give approval and therefore must bear the brunt of the responsibility, but in the end it's a group effort.
I've been on some teams that had great leadership. Even with that there were ups and downs and not every decision was the correct one. But, in the end we prevailed. The difference being we could correct the bad decisions quickly, whereas in the NFL you are stuck with those decisions for at least a year and many times more.
H
Good points. I just think that there's a philosophical divide here in the perception of the magnitude of the issue to date. In my mind, this isn't just a little downturn or drought or run of bad luck, it's a scandal.
You don't get here by accident. It's never any one thing, but there's no good reason it should be so many things.
Look at what I said earlier about the first five expansion years of the Buccaneers, and the last 30 years of the Lions and Cardinals, widely considered the lowliest teams in the league.
The Houston Texans had an awful start as a franchise, but managed to put up 24 wins in their first five seasons.
We have managed to turn in a five-year period (19 wins) that is worse than anything those teams have managed. This is scandalous.
It would be bad enough for a franchise like the Seahawks or Panthers, but we're talking about THE RAIDERS. Commitment to Excellence. Legacy. Pride. Toughness.
It's more than an eight-hour round trip for me to attend a game. I make a lot of effort to attend as many games as I can, and I am a season ticket holder. For the past FIVE YEARS, competitive football has been mostly absent from my Coliseum experience. This is scandalous.
Even the Niners got their fans seven wins last year, and they are run by the most incompetent owners in the league. The Falcons had the most cursed season in the NFL and managed to match our win total this year. As Kiffin said, it's not okay. It's really not okay.
I will start having more positive things to say when the evidence suggests that things are, in Gary's words, being fixed "from the top down." Right now, we only have conjecture that this is happening.
When you have a scandal, people freak out. That's just human nature. When Britney Spears shaved her head, that was like a 5-11 season, and you figured, well, she'll get back on a treadmill and put out an album. Now she's running around with split-personality disorder and being wheeled out of her house on a flatboard to talk to Dr. Phil, which is like 19 wins over five seasons. And people are freaking out. That's the difference between a bad run and a scandal.
But I understand that there are many folks here who can stare down 19 wins in five seasons and conclude that it's just not that big of a deal, and that all of the right steps are being taken to undo it, and that the fans' job is not to investigate the crime scene to identify and discuss the issues behind it, but rather to just hope that it will all get better soon.
http://www.realfootball365
.com/nfl/articles/21005.html
I sense a pang of regret by Anthony Carroll for bashing Al over the whole SOB thing. Some of you might remember how he went nutts the other day and basically recycled all of the rumors into one big blog and assumed it was all true.
Now AC's showing some love for Al. He's giving Al credit for dropping Moss and getting SOMETHING for him. And he's right. Not that Al is perfect, so don't go putting words in my mouth over it. Go Chargers.
Psycho
RT, it's not up to me to convince you of anything. You're a big boy, make up your own mind.
It's also not up to me to knock down your straw man arguments. Calico does a nice job of coming in on a nightly basis and laying down some clear thinking. Generally, with some slight variations, I echo his views.
If 19 wins over the last five seasons is all of you've got, it ain't much. Now your down to nitpicking on a couple of more wins here and there by other teams with bad stretches.
Have you really decided that since we only got 4 wins this season nothing has changed? In Dick Noland's final year with the 9ers he had a 2-14 record. He was replaced by Bill Walsh who proceeded to earn a... 2-14 record. By your current standards, that means that the 9ers, that year, did nothing to correct their problems. Don't accuse me of using past history, because that's the standard you're using for the Raiders right now.
How about the Cowboys. Landry gets fired after a 3-13 season, and Jimmy Johnson is hired, taking the Cowboys to a... 1-15 season. Obviously the Cowboys just made things worse. Right? That's your standard, not mine.
I've been asked what is the consistency over losing periods for the Raiders. I've been told that my answer must be "Al Davis." I've shown where the consistency has been for our losing periods, but that's been ignored because my answer wasn't "Al Davis."
I've been told how important it is that the Raiders have a GM or at least somebody that fills that function. I've pointed out that they have, but that gets ignored.
I've pointed out that if you are going to say that Al is literally responsible for EVERYTHING then all of your Raider heroes have accomplished NOTHING. Many folks seem to at least understand that much, so they've decided that Al is only completely responsible for the bad things.
H, do you ever get the feeling that people only read the first paragraph you write, and then argue with things you never said?
So 19 wins over five seasons "ain't much?"
Wow. Folks, that's the philosophical divide I'm talking about. We're just two ships passing in the night.
And now that we're on the verge of a huge turnaround after Kiffin's first season, in the vein of Walsh and Johnson, who do you suppose is going to snap the ball, catch the ball downfield, block Russell's blind side, stop the run and cover deep opposite Nnamdi?
And show me where I've said that Al Davis is responsible for everything, and I'll acknowledge that you're not using false arguments.
Scorpio-
I hope no one answers yes to your question.
Check Worldwide Fans in Black. Someone usually posts insider stuff...
Take, you can repeat the number 19 for the next twenty years and it won't make it more significant. Check out my last paragraph on me previous post, to H.
Around April thru September last season you were leading the pack, talking about all of the changes the Raiders seemed to be making. Since the Raiders had 4 wins this season, apparently you've decided that the Raiders actually made no changes last off season. And even though Kiffin has said there will be significant changes this off season, since they haven't announced any yet you've decided that everything will be the same again this season. If I call that negativity, you'll tell me I have blinders on.
You'll tell me how much Steve Jobs does for Apple, then tell me that's why NE will go to the Super Bowl. If your problem is with BUSINESS OPPERATIONS, you need to be complaining about Amy Trask. The last I heard, Al runs FOOTBALL OPERATIONS, and Amy runs BUSINESS OPERATIONS.
Forgive my confusion, Take (if you actually happen to read down this far), but are you arguing that no changes are being made; no changes going to be made; all changes must be promptly reported to Raider fans; the Raiders have never