Zero Sum Game
If the reports about Lane Kiffin being under fire are true, then we’ve entered a zero sum game.
Most fans are siding with Kiffin. Others are suggesting that if Kiffin doesn’t want to stay in
Therefore, the Raiders are either bent on undermining a force of positive change, a coach who had finally steered our lost ship in the right direction. Or…the Raiders want to cut ties to a guy who is disloyal, and who wasn
If it’s the former scenario, that
If it’s the latter scenario, it’s equally bad, because it would mean that the Raiders organization, after five years, 61 losses and four head coaching hires, has remained incapable of establishing any form of consistency, continuity or direction, which would amount to organizational incompetence of the highest order.
Zero sum game.
How many second chances do the Raiders get with their paying customers? At what point does loyalty yield to outrage? Where does the buck stop? These are questions that many fans are rightfully asking themselves, even if we might have different answers.
Immediately after learning about the original ESPN report and gauging initial reaction from the Raider Nation, I posted a take suggesting that, if the report wasn’t true, the Raiders should issue a formal statement repudiating the report, with a vote of confidence from Al Davis supporting his head coach.
Some questioned my assertion that Al Davis needs to say something. Well, no, he doesn
My point was that he “should” say something. Why? Because fans don
I am in no way agitating for fans to abandon ship. Also, if this story is a fabrication, then our wrath should be directed at ESPN like never before.
However, there is a reason why so many fans, so suddenly, reacted so forcefully to this report, and the reason is rooted in the unnerving ongoing uncertainty regarding the direction and identity of the team, and the vacuum of communication between the organization and its fans, which may be part of the "Raider Way," but which is also becoming increasingly bad business.
I have been taken to task by many for suggesting that the organization improve its communication and clarify its direction. None of my business, I was told. Okay. But the gap between “none of my business” and “bad business” is rapidly closing.
Even if the ESPN report is false, it unfortunately speaks to a larger truth, which is evident in the negative fan reaction over the weekend. You heard me right: even if the reports are false, a truth has nevertheless been revealed.
Some will argue with the negative reaction. Well, the reaction is what it is. It’s raining today. I can argue about it, but I’m still going to get wet. When the vast majority of your customers are outraged, saying they shouldn’t be outraged is tantamount to arguing with the weather.
Since December, my mood about the Raiders has darkened. Something just didn’t feel right to me. I felt that we could have done a lot better in 2007, and I wondered why we didn’t, and what we were doing to rectify the situation. Long regarded as an optimist, I was suddenly cast as a pessimist. Here’s why:
1) I argued that we should remain concerned about lingering organizational dysfunction that is likely beyond Lane Kiffin’s control.
2) To those who were putting all of their eggs in Kiffin’s basket, I preached caution. To those who suggested that Kiffin has true authority to make key decisions regarding staff and personnel, I asked for firm evidence of such.
3) I was unwilling to view the 2007 season as an acceptable measure of progress.
4) I pressed for an end to the growing excuses and wishful thinking that have resulted in lowered standards in some fans regarding what we should expect from the organization, specifically in regard to its executive operations, on-field performance and fan relations.
These positions were viewed by many as pessimistic as of Friday, but today look downright tame compared to the fan reaction I’m reading.
Since these reports broke, I have been measured in my comments, unwilling to jump to conclusions. But I must say that it doesn’t look good. We haven’t heard from Al Davis, which does make me wonder, as does Kiffin’s non-denial. With all of the actors (Kiffin, Trask, etc.) sounding so stiff and rehearsed, there’s no way that this is just all a big media-fueled misunderstanding, and that things are just peachy between Lane Kiffin and the Oakland Raiders.
Which means that we’ve either alienated a solid head coach, or that we’ve saddled ourselves with yet another bad one. In other words, depending on your perspective, we’ve wasted a great opportunity or yet again demonstrated remarkable organizational incompetence.
Such is the zero sum game that faces the Raider Nation today.
posted by Raider Take at 11:41 AM
531 Comments:
incompetence seems to be the key word -- unfortunately.
I am so fed up, I'm sick. If all turns out the way it seems to be going (Lofton and Saunders are both set to interview apparently), then I am have one foot off the plank, voluntarily...
time to go buy a Lions beenie, at least their incompetence is less mind numbing.
goodbye Nation... it was fun while it lasted. Osama bin Davis is blowing this house up!
Probably the best Take I ever read, although I wish none of it were true.
Psycho
As an optimist... I'm trying hard to figure out what the best possible outcome could be here if indeed Kiffin is gone... and here goes.
How about SOB becomes head coach, Cable and Knapp stay on (and are given more authority) and we hire someone with some balls to be DC, and he turns the entire defense over to him? SOB is just a figure head to yell and clap hands on the sidelines (because the players like him so much).
Worst case scenario: Al hires a puppet scrap-heap coach, keeps SOB as DC, we lose both Cable and Knapp, and we bring back the M2M blocking scheme and the 7 step drop back. Al's only FA pickup is the speedster Berrian (because he watched him beat us last year) and a bunch of last-leg flunkies only interested in a final big payday.
Sadly I pretty much know which scenario is most likely.
This is a grease fire ahead folks... and you thought the previous comments section was depressing... Al has even lost people like ME!
What a massive disappointment and disregard for loyal fans, 'poise and pride,' what a joke, more like 'ego and greed,' i almost feel sorry for the 3 smucks that sunk $150 million for their lousy 20% last year; but mostly I feel a loss, and sympathy for fellow long-time raider fans. Davis' contempt for everyone, particularly the loyal fans that have enabled his lofty paychecks over the decades, reflects his sole obsession with his self-percieved genius and stubborn refusal to relinquish any control, despite the death spiral that has resulted from his bad-health, ego-induced incompetence and aniquidated philosophies.
THere is no longer a committement to Excellence, now it is all about Al, the motto should now read a 'committment to Al'. How ironic, the more he fights to assert his history greatness - the more his ineptitude is apparent to the world, and his greatness of the past denigrated -- he is, unwittingly, destroying his own legacy.
It would be pathetic if it didnt affect better-deserving players and fans; but it does, so in fact, it is just wrong. And it won't get any better, til he is gone.
I understand the need to be objective, but let's not kid ourselves; it's the former; and if no word comes out of HQ on Monday, you can bank on it!
Regarding the latter, any fans (and I've read a negative comment or two and one blog) suggesting Lane Kiffin is a "bad coach" haven't watched the man work this year, or they simply are not inclined to give their head coach any leeway for minor rookie mistakes.
However, this issue is much larger than Lane Kiffin or Al Davis.
We are sick and tired of losing that stems from repeated coaching turnover and the inability to generate even a semblance of continuity within the team.
It may just be a matter of semantics, but the fans “need” to put the Raiders on notice: Based on what I’ve read (from fans), the Raiders should be prepared for the following if Lane Kiffin is out (and again, not just because it’s Lane Kiffin):
Tangibles:
-Loss of active fan base;
-Loss of ticket sales (starting with season tickets);
-Loss of merchandise sales
Intangibles:
-Loss of active fan base (obviously an intangible from the Raiders' perspective);
-Further discontinuity of the coaching staff and player personnel. (Yeah! Sets the team back at least one or two more years. Who of us is prepared for that?);
-Stunt the growth of a $60 mil rookie QB;
-Loss of player interest (both FA and draft)
-Loss of coaching interest
Those are just the short-term ramifications. Pretty much, we can all kiss goodbye any “commitment to excellence” which will then be replaced by “commitment to self-destruct.”
What’s really sad is that the players and assistant coaches probably don’t know any more than we know. That’s quite a way to run a multi-million dollar organization!
I have emailed the raiders twice, and I recommend we all take a pro-active stance.
I survived the Raider move to LA in the 80's(which to me is the ultimate disloyalty to fans), I'll survive this. Sounds stupid but being a raider fan is apart of my DNA. I don't have a choice. Sort like being a part of a dysfunctional family-- you hope for the best, brace for the worst.
There is one thing I know for certain-- Al Davis could care less about fans. He cares the most about his pocket book. I'll continue to be a fan, but he will not get any more of my $$ until some major changes are made (starting in Alameda).
One has to wonder if Kiffen originally took the Raider job simply to gain some notoriety for a college HC job. That is what the raiders have been reduced to-- a stepping stone, but not somewhere anyone would want to stay. I wonder how long the next HC (whatever desperate fool that may be) will stay?
JF
IMHO, this is your finest work RT. Unfortunately this post isn't a celebration about Raider football.
The choices of Saunders, Lofton, and Ryan as the next head coach has some eerie recent parallels.
Saunders > Turner redux. Saunders is another cerebral, offensive "genius" who is not a leader of men.
Lofton > Shell redux. Lofton is another stoic, former player who is not equipped to be a Head Coach.
Ryan > Shell preredux. Similar to when Shanahan was fired and replaced by Shell.
Ryan might have the best chance to succeed because Davis and the players genuinely adore him. However, when you step back for a moment, this just goes to show you the level of dysfunction in Raiderville. Here's a guy who should have been fired for poor performance as DC getting promoted! Yippe.
Thanks, Calico Jack, I consider you a voice of reason and logic (not to mention loyalty and passion), so when I saw your immediate reaction to these reports, I knew we were in trouble.
The zero sum game of this situation has painted all of us into a corner, one in which there is really no upside, no matter how we slice it.
I don't think refraining from buying Raider merchandise will have any impact on Al because I think it all gets divvied up equally amongst all owners (something Al has always bellyached about because the Raiders are always in the top five in merchandising).
The only people that have any clout at all with Al are the people that go to games. If he losses that, he'll prolly just move the team after 2010. I dunno... I feel pretty hopeless here except urging the season ticket holders to rattle Al's cage.
Yeah, but aren't they already stuck with all those exra Philip Buchanan and Randy Moss jerseys? This can't be good for Raider Image sales, no matter where the profits end up.
TAKE HEART RAIDER NATION,
BLANDAROCKED will be back at his work desk early monday morning to tell us why this is a great move by the amazing AL DAVIS.
i can't wait to hear this one.
oh well, that road win in Kc and that win over the donks was sure nice while it lasted.
i guess al felt us fans were getting a little spoiled by it.
>>>>
BLANDAROCKED will be back at his work desk early monday morning to tell us why this is a great move by the amazing AL DAVIS.
>>>>
Is that worse than the IAAFers spending two weeks bashing Kiffin and the Raiders for only going 4-12, and then suddenly going apeshit because he is getting fired for going... 4-12???
Those who operate under the "It's All Al's Fault (IAAF)" belief never wanted Kiffin fired in the first place, because, by their very definition as IAAFers, they never thought the team's underperformance in 2007 was Kiffin's fault.
Lets look at some facts. Kiffin carries 4 Wr's after cutting 2 a few games into the season. He blows a 3rd round pick. Signs a high priced FA RB that he will not play. Carries 4 QB's and puts Russell further behind by not starting him until the last game. Now Kiffin wants to dump 3 or 4 O coaches that he just brought in and fire Ryan. All the while flirting with the Arkansas job he thought Al would not find out about. When Al tells him no Ryan is staying he says fire me like a kid.
If I am Al I tell the kid to go f--- himself. The kid will be a good coach with some time and seems to pick things up fast. Once he lost the 4 or so games he knows he should have won if not for his overly conservative play calling he changed. Ended up winning a couple AFC games once he let the players play. The kid wants to check his ego and move on with the Raiders great, if not I say see ya.
Bama7
Exactly, RT. I have been very, very vocal about my feelings on Davis, but have never bashed Kiffin. Why would Gary even say that?
Al is the problem. You can call me the head of the IAAF if you want.. I don't mind. I'm not ashamed of it. Al Davis is what is wrong with Oakland. Game's passed him by. PERIOD. I don't revel in those thoughts... I find them very sad.
Only time will tell if Kiffin is a good or bad coach.. but one year was not nearly enough. He improved he run... brought in good offensive coaches.
Someone's probably in Al's ear, probably SOB, telling the old man everything he wants hear, saying that Jruss could start all over in Saunder's offense and be fine cuz he missed training camp last year.
And yes Raider00, I'm sure Blanda will break it all down for us this week... explaining the Davis genius in the latest situation, wether it's Al dumping Kiffin or just some Raider HQ cat and mouse game with all of us.
Lovely. I just hope Kiffin survives with power... and personnel input.
Thats true RT... but my point is this... You are piss your pants mad at being 4-12... same as Al is... when winning becomes more important than anything else, it leads to irrational decisions.
I read it for two weeks here about how pissed you all were... about how winning is more important than anything... a 3rd overall pick isn't worth losing 4 extra games... etc etc... how much I am a moron for wishing for patience.
You and Al simply have different solutions to the same problem... win at all costs.
You want Al gone, and Al wants Kiffin gone... poof, problem solved!! Neither the IAAFers or Al look at the problem very rationally, in my mind. As I've said over and over here... Al-haters and Al are too much alike for their own good. Tell me there is a IAAFer here that didn't want Callahan fired, or Turner fired, or Shell fired before you bitch about Kiffin being fired. I dare you! lol
>>>>
Exactly, RT. I have been very, very vocal about my feelings on Davis, but have never bashed Kiffin. Why would Gary even say that?
>>>>
As if you wouldn't want his head on a pike next year if he went 4-12 again.
Please... the only reason you haven't crucified him yet is because he hasn't been around long enough.
(From Psycho) - I suppose it is possible that as good a coach as Kiffin is, he might be a little too ambitious for his level of experience, and maybe a little disrespectful considering the man he works for.
We've all seen the public contradictions between he & Davis, and I'm not saying he was wrong. But maybe he was a little too forceful in trying to go about fixing things within the building.
What little we saw was probably the tip of the iceburg, and he did some pretty bold things that we're aware of. Directly contradicting Davis' comments, and even publically calling out the "Entire Building". One can only assume he was turning over every stone in the building trying to weed out what he considered "problems". Couple that with an obvious difference of opinion on fundamental issues with the prideful man who built that building from the ground up, signs the checks, and fires coaches for less, well you've got yourself a situation. It's easy to understand Davis' point of view and reaction even if wrong.
Oh well, overly ambitious or not, I'm glad at least one person on this earth had the balls to try and fix this thing by pointing out the flaws in the organization.
I guess I'm trying look for some type of positive outcome in all of this, like some of you. It seems like if the major issues are things such as hurt pride, lack of respect by either man, or one man not living up to his word, then these issues might be fixable if they can kiss & make up.
NFL.com is reporting that Kiffin hopes to remain with the Raiders, obviously based on his response of "I hope so" when asked if he will return. Somewhat comforting title but I wouldn't count on it happening. Still, I get the feeling that Kiffin genuinely wants to finish the job he started and has nothing but the best intentions for the Raiders.
My conclusion is this. The only possible "positive" thing that can come from all of this is if we as fans have a "negative" response. Not that I need to urge anyone to do so, since we're already cancelling our tickets, making threats to stop supported them, and expressing our outrage every chance we get. Probably on a global scale.
In a prefect world, Al listens to our cries, realizes his wrongs, and makes changes accordingly. I suggest one or more of the following:
1) Drop it, let the man coach no matter what he does that you don't like, and you let him have significant input in FA and the draft. An appology wouldn't hurt. Appreciation for his efforts to fix your mess should be shown. In return you might get a kinder gentler Lance Kiffin who doesn't butt heads with you so much.
2) Hire a good GM to fix your mess, let him decide what to do with Kiffin, fly to Hawaii for a year and return as simply an "owner", cheer for the Raiders until you die. You can fire as many GM's as you like, just don't do it yourself.
3) Retire, leaving the ownership responsibilities to your family. Take a bath in piles of gold coins. Cheer for the Raiders until you die.
4) Sell the Raiders.
5) Suicide.
Psycho
Gary, the more coaches we hire and fire, the more I'm inclined to think that our problem has less to do with the coaches. You find this unreasonable?
Even if Kiffin was a bum, and the three before him were bums, then the organization has a serial propensity for hiring and firing bums, which demonstrates a staggering incompetence that ultimately breaks the trust of the average fan.
I'm not the one making this complicated.
RT... true or false... did you APPROVE of the firing of Callahan, Turner, and Shell when they were fired?
Be honest here... I'll be ready to wager good money that most Raider fans wanted at least two of them fired at the TIME they were fired, and many prolly wanted all three of them fired when they were fired.
My point is, if you weren't pissed about the problem before, why are you now? If Al had given Callahan three full years to prove himself, followed by Turner (or whomever) for three more years.. and we STILL sucked... a firing right now wouldn't be that big of a deal.
It would be understandable.
You can't be pissed about Al for firing 5 coaches in 7 years if you APPROVED of him firing three of them in five years... that just makes you just a little less knee-jerky as Al... especially considering I'd bet most of you would be HAPPY to see Kiffin fired if he doesn't get you your wins next year.
Gary:
So me approving of the firing of Art Shell and Tom Walsh somehow makes it right that they were hired in the first place?
So my trusting the Raiders, as a fan, that they did their due professional diligence when hiring coaches, at the time of each coach's hiring, is more offensive to you than the fact that the Raiders didn't do their due diligence?
And now that it has become very clear here that our problem runs much deeper than this coach or that coach (a perspective none of us had two or three years ago, because 2008 was the future back then), you still want to hold me accountable for this mess?
Now you want to make me a scapegoat for this mess? Jeez.
P.S. This is the NFL. The whole idea is to win games.
GARY,
i will only speak for myself here.
i never wanted gruden traded/fired
therefore, i never wanted calahan HIRED.
i never wanted turner HIRED.
i never wanted shell REHIRED.
the fact that they were all fired after short terms, did not surprise me in the least.
also, i do not want kiffin pushed out.
i'm not so hung up on his 4-12 record.
the signs of improvement were there for all to see.
2 division wins, after how many losses in a row ?
2 road wins, after how many losses in a row ?
kiffin will get this thing turned around, but he can't if he's coaching Kc, or somewhere else.
Don't listen to Gary, RT. After all he is the crazy loon who would rather go 1-15 to get a better draft pick. Why even bother arguing with his insane ramblings?
Al gave kiff a shot. He even gave him the 3 year contract. Al feels Kiff didn't cut it or has philosophical differences for whatever reason. Al owns the team, it's his decision.
It's your right to not got to games or buy stuff, good for you, I hope it works. But don't give me the "i'll be a detroit fan", cause if it's like that, you're not a fan anyway, you 'follow the team' or whatever you sheep like to call it. Go buy a Brady jersey and enjoy the Superbowl.
Fairweather fans need to walk the plank. they polute the nations genepool.
The raiders were my favorite team from an early age (3yrs/1974), but by the time I really became a fan(atic) about the game, we were mediocre at best (90 on). The gannon/chucky years were good.
Now this.
It's a foreign concept to me, it's like saying "I want to be a different color/race". To late, you are what you are. I'm a Raider.
Hey, our economy is a little rocky right now, lets switch to communism!
Get the f--k off of my obstical private Pyle!!!!!
when i first heard this report on friday night, i fell out of the bed laughing my butt off at my aunt/uncles house.
i came home tonight, and read some bay area sports, and some other media other than the loser network espn.
i can't believe what i'm reading. i'm in shock. i don't know what think anymore.
if kiffin leaves, i blame al davis. if we hire a new coach, not only will it be demoralizing, we will never break this cycle of losing nor return to glory. that is why i will blame al davis. dude, get a grip on yourself! it's time to let your head coach do what you hired him to do. give him the control he needs to run your team, and stay out of his playbook.
i'm pissed off, i'm confused, and as a fan, i'm hurt and tired of all of this crap that has happened to us the last 5 years (and counting). if kiffin is fired, let go, resigns, etc; i just may go as well, at least until davis goes.
i've said it before, and i will say it again. i am no al davis hater. i respect the guy and what he has done, not only with the raiders, but in the league. there is not another innovative owner in sports like al davis. but, with all the good things he's done, he's hurt this team a lot too. give credit where credit is due. when it's going good, he's done well. when it's not, like the last 5 years, he's getting in the way and needs to step aside.
if he fires kiffin, he will do more than he's ever done to destroy the hopes and dreams of not only the raiders, but the raider nation; and it's quest to return to glory. you have to be willing to give a coach more than a year to build. you have to give young players like we have the stability of leadership, or you will ruin their careers, you have to let the people you hire, do what you hired them to do.
as a leader of people, one of the biggest things i've learned is to trust the other leaders/people around you to do what you are leading them to do, and delegate to them responsibilities that will give you the results you desire.
this is where al davis fails, and continues to ruin this organization; if these rumors are true.
here is a poem of how i feel.
the autum wind is dying
giving away to winter storms
hurricane winds, crushing waves,
and a fierce current
has swept my dead body ashore
the autum wind is crying
for the glory of yester yore
under the fallen leaves,
crushed beneath our feet
is the grave of the team i adore
the autum wind is a raider
a pirate i've never seen before
beaten and down trodden
lying in the mud sobbing
hung in the gallows of the loser
Even though RT warned against putting all of our eggs in the Kiffin basket I already did. But more importantly I think a lot of players did.
If Kiffin leaves I wouldn't expect to win more than 3 or 4 games in '08 no matter what moves we make. If I were a player, I'd play for the money, since whatever system we're running NOW will only go away next year an it'll be more of the same. If I'm one of the good ones who play to win, I'm extremely hurt by all this and considering a change of location in hopes of winning. How "Raider" is that?
We might manage to put together a respectable team here or there and win some games, but I honestly do not see another SB in our future until we see a major change up front. And I didn't feel that way 3 days ago so I don't think I've let that sink in yet personally.
Psycho
Raidernate,
you are correct in everything you say.
but it's worse then even that.
it's not just about firing lane kiffin. kiffin may very well be back next season.
but kiffin, apparently, will be forced to keep a DC he does not want to keep.
maybe there are other defensive coaches kiffin would like replaced.
...not going to happen.
so while kiffin is trying to improve our defense, al davis is trying to keep his guys/spies, on the sidelines to be his eyes and ears.
it's a complete farce, and if i were lane kiffin, i would walk out the door, and dare al davis to win a super bowl with denny green/james loften, or al saunders as head coach.
i would then take a Hc job with Kc, and beat al's a** the next 19 out of 20 games played.
call me an al hater if you'd like, but this is the last straw.
When will you faida fanatics show me the proper respect I have earned over the last 6 years of loyally leading you fellow faida fanatics through the years of debacle that big al (MR). davis has forced upon us? I have consistently explained what has been done wrong, who needed to be dumped, why the majority of the NFL fan base hates our beloved faidas, and what needs to happen to bring the faidas to true football greatness! I told you the faida propaganda machine has to be disbanded, you have to get rid of the LOSER hangers oners, "mushmouth atkinson", "jt the shizzle brick", "jimmy the plunk", "tommy boy MR. flowers flores", "artie the dwarf gigantinooooo", "greg papsmear papa", and the rest of those pathetic but kissn' al davis yes women! It truely is that simple, don't forget, you have to get rid of the thugsta' gangbanga, low lifers and con/excons, and stop dressing up like children and gay paraders! It's time to grow up! Last and most importantly tell big al to GET LOST. That is thev way to start over, no other way is possible. I have been right for years, and I am right now! Thank you for understanding that I want my favorite team to turn it around NOW.....Go faidas, keep defending the "nation", Just be in awe of my insight babies. 0-16, in "09" PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i have a question.... what's the point of even having a head coach? why doesn't al just let the OC, DC and ST each coach their end of the game and screw having a head coach to hire and fire every year! hell, this whole operation is mickey mouse anyway so somebody tell al to give it a try! he's an innovative maverick and it'll be a first in the NFL - unless there's a rule that states that there MUST be a head coach on the sidelines. if that's the case, why not let run run jones "pose" as the coach - oh wait, he's gone. hmmm, how about YEAH - MICKEY MOUSE!!!!! i crack myself up!!!!
Before last Friday I would have thought she was just completely full of it, now I'm not so sure:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/26/SPJPUM98P.DTL
I've heard it said by others before, and now I find myself leaning towards this:
http://www.mercurynews.com/raidersheadlines/ci_8085459?nclick_check=1
Just when we were going into an offseason with that most dangerous thing in our grasp, HOPE, now it looks like it will be snatched away all to salve someone's ego. It was just a year ago we were being introduced to Lane Kiffin as the new head coach of the Raiders. Now where the hell are we?
Bama7
Gary, please don't turn this into a "well, you were all gonna start bashing Kiffin anyway" debate. That's just plain ignorant. If you can't see that we have a delusional owner running our franchise in the ground, then you sir are blind.
Our only hope is that this will all get so embarrassing for Al, that Kiffin will somehow survive as our coah and have more power. The backlash on Al is going to be so huge it will threaten his legacy... so we have hope. Al has simply run out of options. I can't see how in the hell Al Saunders would even want to come coach for Al. It's either Ryan or Kiffin at this point. Or, I suppose Al could do what he really wants to do and that is be the coach himself. He might as well, he's trying to do everything else himself.
Someone please find links to polls on who is wrong and let's start blasting Al out of the water... so badly that he is finally, for once, put in his place. No more hiding so as no one knows what's happening or who did what. let's get it all out in the open and let the court of public opinion decide.
Well, well, well.
The media is all over the map again. Oh well. I didn't open my internet connection the whole weekend.
Spent the weekend ingesting a few liquid consumables, listening to my Led Zeppelin Box Set and painting my kitchen (gotta keep the little woman happy).
I read two articles and stopped there since they began repeating themselves.
One article said the "source" adminted the didn't know what Al Davis did or didn't do on a day to day basis. And, another stated that NO NFL team comments on such matters.
So, here we are, more rumor, more conjecture. I still refuse to get my colon all kinked up on rumor. It's not worth it.
RT, this was a well though out, well stated take. I will have to read it again and digest some more before specifice comments.
For those ready to walk the plank while posting under "anonymous", be my guest. Go jump on the Patsies wagon. You won't be missed.
H
Just one little quote:
"The Raiders, through senior executive John Herrera, vehemently deny any of this is true."
I'll leave it to the individual to interpret.
H
H-ingesting liquid consumables and listening to Led Zeppelin all weekend. I wish I could say that.
I spent the weekend with my stomach in a knot.
Bama-JMac cited a poll that was extremely lopsided in Kiffin's favor. I'll try and find it updated and post the link.
Gary- I think it's safe to say that few of us (including yourself, I'm guessing) endorsed the departure of Gruden, or the hirings of Turner or Shell Part II.
Callahan had many of us fooled, but his departure was his own doing. You can't call out your players as "the dumbest team in America" and expect to retain their respect.
My concern now is that Davis will remember Kiffin's first name when he holds a press conference to announce his resignation/firing and the hiring of his new coach "Jason" Lofton.
Bama- Here's the poll:
http://forums.contracostatimes.com/cc-ccsports/messages?msg=9367
The poll question is:
"As a Raiders fan who would you rather get rid of, Al Davis or Lane Kiffin?"
87% said Al Davis.
Very sad it has come to this, but there it is.
Btw, only 3% said Kiffin. There were four reponse choices.
I just went and voted. While they did allow the choice "Neither", it did not ask me for proof of fanship. I was prepared to hold up my Raider coffee mug to the screen, but I wasn't asked.
Ole Anon Patsie cross dresser probably went to as many computers as he could get to and voted. Him and his one friend (well maybe he's got a friend, perhaps we should do a poll on that one.)
H
H,
Judging by the reaction I've seen over the weekend by genuine Raider fans, I think the poll results are legit.
Last thursday there is no way I'd vote Al Davis out of office. But the overwhelming "evidence" that you probably have not let sink in yet points to Al going completely insane and Kiffin no longer a Raider as of very soon. Unless by some miracle Al listens to out complete outrage and makes things right. I'm convinced.
I'm not walking the plank and I never will. But this is the worst of times. So bad that I voted for Davis in the poll like everybody else. I'm sick of losing. What a horrible, disgusting weekend, and I envy you that you "missed" it.
Psycho
I'm so sick of it all. I'm sick of the rumors. I'm sick of the nameless sources and misinformation. I am sick of fans that think an owner can be fired. Most of all I'm sick of losing.
If Al Davis is a bad owner now, then the media is at least as bad. It is utterly despicable the number of BS stories these guys make up without a single quote. Don't get me wrong I want the team to get better too. But I wish we could create a constitutional amendment banning the "unnamed source".
All that is going on right now amounts to nothing more than gossip. And gossip is bad. I realize Al Davis hasn't come out and said anything, but did you really expect him to? I mean every single time he has some contact with the media it burns him. For every real question, you have some nit like Nancy Gay sticking her digs in, instead of asking intelligent football questions. On top of that the Bay Area media obviously hates Al because he won't give them the juicy little (read stupid) quote that they want. He disinvolves himself entirely from them. And still they dig their heels into him.
I am normally an optimist, and I tend to defend Al because I've met the guy and had a conversation with him, and he's an old guy, but he's pretty sharp. By no means is he the idiot the media so desperately tries to portray him as. I'm not saying I agree with all he does, but two wrongs don't make a right.
You say you're a Raider fan, well then, be a fan in the dark times as much as in the light times. It was only 5 years ago that some of you jumped aboard the bandwagon because we were winning all the time. Five years ago we were in the superbowl, how many teams can say that; in the AFC especially? Maybe 3 other than us?
Like it or not, Al owns the team, and just as you would, he is entitled to do with the team as he wishes. You're right we don't NEED to buy tickets. But I'm guessing when we start winning again, you will. You know you will, if you're really a Raider fan. Because even with all this crap going on (or not going on whatever the case may be) you're still just as hooked on the football as I am.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm sick of all of this. But one winning season would cure all that ails me in this regard. That or a public flogging of Monte Poole and Nancy Gay. That would be almsot as fun.
The contra costa times reported the following FACTS:
“Between (Raiders return to Oakland in 1995) and now, the Raiders are tied for 26th in the NFL (in winning percentage) (at .418), and tied for 100th among the 122 teams in the NFL, NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball.”
“If you refine your focus to the day after their Super Bowl XXXVII beat-down, the Raiders are the worst team in or out of the NFL. Since that day, they are 19-61 (.238) -- six games worse than the runner-up 49ers.”
There’s no need to sugarcoat it, that’s textbook, epic dysfunction. It’s one of those bad things that’s so bad, you couldn’t try and have it turn out that bad again.
Contra Costa added this comentary:
“Davis' supporters cite his rightful place in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and his reputation as a football visionary and innovator. He was all those things. But his second reign in Oakland will absolutely impact how he is remembered. He'll always be the guy who built the empire. Now he'll also be recalled as the guy who burned it to the ground.”
Right now, evidence points to this being accurate.
raider ray, unfortunately pal, you'll be the only one in the stands. Read today's article by monte poole. denial is a bad thing dude. al can't hide anymore. he has long passed buffoon status. get off that wagon man and see what's really going on here. outrage by almost every fan. those things that bama7 and i have been preaching are now coming into fruition. good times, bad times. unfortunately we've had nothing but bad times and its time to show the old man who is really the boss and thats the paying customers.
these past several years, i've always wanted to know how we (the public) can wrestle away this team from this owner - you know like how the packers are owned by the people. monte's article today doesn't quite give that solution but rather perhaps the league can step in somehow and rescue this franchise from its own living hell.
whether kiffin stays or not, this is a nightmare of a situation for this team and the fans to be in. what top free agent in their right mind would come to this chaos ray? and who's gonna pay their salary? you and blanda?
wake up man. as dan meredeth used to sing; the party's over.....sing with me ray.....everybody now.....
Bama7
Thanks NY Raider, just voted... was one of the nearly 2,000. I bet if they could check IP addresses for the "get rid of Kiffin's" most would be coming from raider HQ. Al's proabbaly got a team up there firing them off as we speak, but at least he knows the truth. He can't contiue to be sorry and still be revered.
I am losing it, because articles like these are really starting to make sense to me:
http://www.profootballnet.com/content/view/2125/59/
HELP!
Raider Ray,
Are you sure you're not BlandaRocked or H posting under a different pseudonym.
H
Some people seem to be misunderstanding my analysis.
My point isn't that I've made up my mind about anything right now. My point isn't that Al Davis can't do anything he wants.
My point is that what is happening is bad business, as evident in the fan reaction, not to mention the on-field product. You can argue with the fan reaction, but that won't change the fan reaction. You can argue with the weather, too. Be my guest.
Any time your most dedicated customers rise up in such rebuke, you have a problem of your own making. Something like this doesn't happen overnight.
As for those who would paint frustrated fans as disloyal and somehow lesser than you, perhaps you should consider your own possible role as an enabler in what ails the Raiders.
The Raiders and the Raider Nation are a family. Sometimes true love requires tough love. I love and respect Al Davis. For that very reason, I am not going to give him a free pass. Some of you sound like you'd let us go 0-100 over the next seven years before you'd take the painful step of helping the organization face the music. What are your limits and standards?
Say Kiffin was, in fact, allowing his eye and dedication to wander, making him a poor, immature choice to lead the team? Well, then, somebody is responsible for making that poor choice, and it would be the same people who entrusted our team to Art Shell and Norv Turner and who have put us in a hole once again. The only way to win in the NFL is through quality and consistency. How are we doing on those fronts?
As someone else said, being a Raiders fan is part of my DNA. Being an enabler, however, is not.
Scorpio/Bama (and others with similar views),
When these Kiffin rumors first started during the Arkansas thing, I said I'd join your "side" if Kiffin were to leave as our HC, this year or the next. I'm a man of my word. Without hard evidence I've always just played the fence and asked "what if?" rather than following anything blindly. When he's officially gone, I'm officially backing your cause. I'm just warming up right now.
Although I never agreed with taking it to the extent of simply blaming Al for everything, and I probably won't. The clouds of blind loyalty are parting and I can almost see the light.
Both "sides" of it have made many, many valid points for & against Al, I must say. It just sucks that it's come to a head this way.
Psycho
My position has never changed: My fan relationship with Al Davis is one of Love & Hate. Unfortunately, I tend to be leaning to one side more than I'd like (or ever believed possible).
As one article said (more or less), Al Davis can swiftly end this nonsense with a public statement of support for his coach.
Short of that, there is, at a minimum, an apparent double-standard regarding the support of his coaching staff; or worse, a complete and deep-rooted organizational dysfunction.
I am eagerly awaiting the next move by Raider HQ to make my final determination.
that's what i'm saying psych, any way you cut it, whether kiffin stays or not there will be uncertainty.
this is what you can expect as long as davis runs HIS team HIS way.
WINS? forget it man. no-one crosses al and gets away with it. this unfortunately is the standard in oakland and it won't get better anytime soon.
do what's right psycho. show your disgust by not showing up at the gate. we fans have to be united in this because there's just no other way to express our outrage.
NYRAIDER said:
As one article said (more or less), Al Davis can swiftly end this nonsense with a public statement of support for his coach.
NY, let's say kiffin DOES stay. how does a lame duck coach stay with his decision making powers stripped? he can't draft, can't hire/fire his own coaches, can't attend meetings, his eventual replacement hired by davis looking over his shoulder? etc., etc.
know what? i've come to like kiffin for his enthusiasm. i say go young man with your dignity in tact. what is money when you can go somewhere else, double what you made here, where you will be appreciated and your career can take off? its just not worth the grief!
just watch him go to KC when herm gets canned. he'll bash al's head in 2x/year and davis'll claim that he discovered that he had a hand in discovering that brilliant coach!
wid taylor and trask and whoever is left as my yes peeps da greatness o'da raiduhs is in its futcha! we are da team o'da decades, no scratch dat ame's, make it da team o'da century. i will make da nfl pay and grovel at my feet.
what a shame this has become!
Take - your comments strike true. You are on your game Dude!
For the first time ever I got on the Raiders site and sent an e-mail and complained that as a Fan that we deserve a quality product . Even if it fell on deaf ears it was somewhat therapeutic. Kiffin brought hope, there was tangible evidence we were moving in the right direction. Maybe Kiffin naively thought that he was somewhere other than Raider headquarters and he got a little full of himself but come on! Stop the madness, stick with a coach , a plan and execute! So what if he gave some interest to Arkansas, we all want something better for us and our family. Keep him happy and he won't turn his head the wrong way. The offense improved greatly ( KIffin) and the defense( Ryan) let us down. So what if he wants to can Ryan, can anyone blame him ? Ryan failed plain and simple. We all know that that the Raider mystique is made of a " we do it our way screw you" blend of secrecy and a good deal of dysfunctionality and thats cool to an extent. BUT what is being reported ( if true) is beggining to border on down right Mental illness. I will never change loyalties, but it is becoming an embarassment to be a Raider fan, not sure how much more I can take. So here's hoping against all odds that Mr Davis throws Kiffin a bone and makes him happy. Kiffin has a plan and I want him to stay. I urge others to send e-mails through Raiders.com . We fans are the reason that the our Raiders exist but it seems like we are being shunned , and ignored. desperate times call for desperate measures , let your voice be heard ( I hope) through the Raiders web site.
Scorpio,
To your point and RT's main point of "Zero Sum Game" things are different no matter what happens now. I guess the only thing I'm hung up with now is absolute confirmation that we're screwed to gauge my level of outrage.
It's clear we have major issues. If Al hears our cries now and does something to remedy the situation (something big) then I'll consider attending at least one game to throw him a bone.
Like another poster, I'm eagerly awaiting the "official" word from the man himself. But I've got my arms crossed and a pissed off look my eye for this one.
Psycho
Take,
Just in case you were talking about me. I never said frustrated fans were disloyal. My reference to "walking the plank" was in reference to the followin:
"I am so fed up, I'm sick. If all turns out the way it seems to be going (Lofton and Saunders are both set to interview apparently), then I am have one foot off the plank, voluntarily...
time to go buy a Lions beenie, at least their incompetence is less mind numbing."
posted at 11:55.
H
H, no, I wasn't referring to you!
I JUST SENT A NOTE VIA FEEDBACK@RAIDERS.COM AND MY SEASON TICKET REP NOT THAT I EXPECT ANYTHING POSITIVE TO COME OUT OF THIS BUT AT LEAST THEY MIGHT GET A CLUE.....
I'm going to make one post today, because it's damned annoying arguing with people when everyone is in the dark.
1. ESPN's reporting has raised an issue. Nobody seems to have any evidence that what they say is true - or false. Everybody seems to have some pretty immovable positions on that story, regardless.
2. I'm going to wait for either the Raiders or for Kiffin to make a definitive statement on this.
3. It seems that the ESPN story, and Herrera's statement are wholly incompatible. A statement that the story is a "non-issue" certainly will be made blatantly false in short order if the Raiders are actually interviewing replacement HC's today. That would be tantamount to the Raider organization standing up as a collective entity and proclaiming, "we're all liars!"
4. It is very possible that Lofton is being interviewed as a replacement WR coach, and that Saunders is interviewing for the OC position. I'd point out that Knapp said, when he took the job, that he didn't know how long he'd be here. Green has expressed complete ignorance to all of it.
5. There is an article linked through raidersnews.com that claims to have spoken to a former Raiders Coach. I suspect it may have been Tom Flores. The FRC said that Kiffin had been doing some pretty heady things that looked like he was pursuing a power struggle against Davis (also embarrassing other Raider coaches in Alabama). Basically he was saying that Kiffin may have brought all of this on himself.
Ultimately the gist seemed to be that Kiffin is seeking to expand his power and authority over the players by doing things behind folks' backs, and Davis always views such actions as disloyal.
I'd only add that I've said before that this amount of information, if it has any merit, would have to come from either Kiffin or Davis (or someone extremely close to one or the other). Davis has never had a history of playing footsie with the media to suit his purposes. Kiffin doesn't have a history.
What is the truth? What is fiction? I don't know. I assume we'll find out. Probably before the end of today, but certainly by the end of the week.
I'll wait.
I do want to add one thing. If all of this arises around Kiffin while he's saying, "WTF?" then it speaks very badly for how well the SOB (senile old bastard) is handling his young HC.
If other reports are true, that Kiffin WAS actually actively pursuing the openings at Arkansas and Michigan in the middle of his first season, then I'm surprised Davis let it go this long without firing the disloyal SOM. It likely would also be the reason he wasn't hired for those college positions. "This kid is looking for a new job when he's barely half way through his first season somewhere else? Find somebody with stability!"
I may be in the minority here, but I'm not phased at all by yet another display of journalistic irresponsibility.
It was actually a topic of debate at my birthday party this weekend, before I walked up on the conversion. My inebriated guests grew silent until one of my buddies slurred, "You tell 'em! I already know what you are going to say".
My answer then, and now.
"It's bullsh*t".
The story is unbelievable, poorly constructed, and frankly, quite silly. Is it beyond the realm of belief. No. But what is?
It sells papers. Whatever happens, the same journalist will find a way to spin the result to make them look wise.
If you received a letter of resignation from your boss, who would you tell? Would you tell someone that would leak it to others? If you wrote a letter for your employee, how many people would see it? If word got out, even in the office, wouldn't someone lose their job?
"It's all complete B.S.," Herrera said.
Okay, okay... I know I only said one post, but my point was that I'm not arguing with anybody.
I wanted to offer a scenario that could make sense, given the jumble of info offered. All of the following have been reported, so suppose they happened in the following order.
1. Kiffin's agent calls Al Davis to tell him that Arkansas is interested (and later Michigan).
2. Davis is furious because he has the right to expect that someone under a 3 year contract will at least give it their all for one year.
3. Davis calls Kiffin on the carpet and hands him a letter of resignation, telling him that he can sign it whenever he likes.
4. The reason that Kiffin is slamming doors and cursing that he didn't get the Arkansas job is that he knows he's destroyed his position with the Raiders, and now he's stuck.
5. Davis tells Kiffin that because he can no longer trust Kiffin's longevity, he will not allow Kiffin to make any lasting changes with the Raiders staff or personnel without first getting them approved by Davis.
6. Kiffin asks that he be fired, hoping that at least he'll be able to salvage his pay check.
7. Davis refuses.
8. At season's end, Kiffin fires Ryan, knowing he doesn't have the authority to do so, believing that when Davis finds out, Davis will fire Kiffin. Kiffin continues to take such actions, hoping Davis will fire him. Davis takes the position that he will only fire Kiffin "for cause."
This leaves us at the present point. I don't offer this because I believe it, it's just the only thing that makes sense and takes all the information as "fact."
pope,
Normally I'd agree with you, and I wish I could. What "did it" for me personally was Kiffin's reaction after the Senior Bowl. Not only did he go through the entire week without being spotted in Raider gear while refusing to comment on the "last 3 weeks", which I'll admit was not that big a deal.
When asked if he'll be coaching the Raiders next fall he said "I hope so" as he turned to quickly leave the scene.
My heart sank. I witnessed the moment our organization imploded. For a transcript, check the previous Take around Saturday evening. The optimism was already slowly draining away, and at that moment there was silence, followed by complete outrage on a huge scale once the situation registered within the Nation.
Hererra is the one feeding us B.S. otherwise Kiffin would've at least said "yes". From his own words, there is uncertainty.
Psycho
blanda,
kiffin is to blame here for his disloyalty so therefore deserves to be fired. its kiffin who is the bad guy here, NOT al.....i see.....
now go tell that to the thousands of outraged former season ticket holders.
BTW, as to how I spent my weekend. Very similar to H. We're old enough. We've been down this road before.
Hey Blanda,
If you went sailing I bet the sea was calm compared to the tempest raging in the Raider Nation.
The A.P. article, carried on MSNBC.com & MercuryNews.com, reads:
Kiffin was asked after coaching the North team at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, Ala., on Saturday whether he wanted to return for a second season as Oakland’s coach.
“I hope so,” he said.
Did anyone see him answer? For me, it's all in delivery. Not a great time for sarcasm, but...
They didn't ask him IF he's going to be the Coach. They asked him if he WANTS TO BE the coach.
Pope, I saw Kiffin answer the question. It did not seem at all like a coded message. It was just off hand. Basically what he said was that the moment was for the college players as their day, and their day shouldn't be clouded by Raider issues.
It was the right thing to say no matter how it was portrayed as coming down on one side or the other as to the argument.
realist, I knew the weather around here would be much stormier than anything I might find on the bay. I'm basically choosing to sit this one out. There's really no point in heated arguments over guesses. It will all come out in the wash.
It looks like the posters on JMac's site are starting to be of the opinion that what this all amounts to his Kiffin overstepping his bounds by sending an already fired Rob Ryan to give his farewells to Davis. Even if such a move is supported by folks, I would think that it is obviously a very stupid political move.
As JMac says, you can argue that the Raiders don't have a GM, but that's clearly wrong. It's Al. Laying the official stamp on hiring and firing has never been the responsibility of the HC. It is the responsibility of the owner or the GM. Kiffin was not hired as an GM/HC.
But those reports are also suggesting that it's a done issue, and that Davis and Kiffin have already worked out the disagreement.
When Herrera speaks, he should not be dismissed. Herrera is a senior executive in the building. He's been there longer than anyone except Davis. Generally you can pretty much assume that when Herrera speaks, it has the same force as Davis. When the Raiders issued the release about Ryan, it was issued by Taylor who is only the Raider publicist.
freakingpope,
I didn't read the "I hope so" response in some article. I saw it clearly on the post-game show with my own eyes and I remember it vividly, as it was one of the points in time that my life changed. The reporter was misquoted in that article, if that's what they're reporting. Here is what I heard:
Reporter: "Will you be coaching the Raiders next fall?"
Kiffin: "I hope so."
Kiffin's manerism, to me anyways was that of a guy who didn't want to answer that question. He was already walking away as he ended his short response. I felt like I detected a real sense of diappointment in his voice too.
Psycho
Oh, and since there has been some reporting that Davis is displeased with Mark Jackson (for taking too long to get JRuss signed and for only getting a #4 pick for Moss), it might just be - and this is a slight reach - that Al Saunders is not coming to interview for a coaching position, but for Mark Jackson's position.
I think the "Kiff pissed off Al w/ the college hunt" scenario ends better with Al sent a letter to Kiff shoowing him the line in his contract that says Al can move him to waterboy if he wants.
So Al told him you can stay, but you won't be HC.
Psycho:
"Kiffin's mannerism, to me anyways was that of a guy who didn't want to answer that question. He was already walking away as he ended his short response. I felt like I detected a real sense of disappointment in his voice too."
I saw it a little different. There was the first question, and Kiffin said he didn't want to discuss Raider business because the day belonged to the college players. Then the reporter asked him whether he'd be back (I don't remember the exact wording). Then Kiffin gave him a slight look of "what did I just say?" Then Kiffin while walking away said, "I hope so." And I felt there was a touch of sarcasm in that answer.
Nobody knows anything. Everything is based on conjecture and innuendo. But look where that’s left us... dejected and despondent.
Won’t the Raiders please throw us a bone? I’ve been sticking it out for over 30 (mostly good) years, and this is by far the lowest I’ve ever felt about this organization.
To live in a complete shroud of secrecy, leaving your players, your coaches, your fans, your business associates, your peers, your affiliates, your sponsors, your would-be free agents and draftees, and the media (who can obviously be brutal when not fed regularly) without even a clue.
Is this supposed to be the ultimate Raiders power-play, or some clever way to scold the media for irresponsible reporting?
Most of us recognize Jerry McDonald as being a straight-shooting journalist with an ear to the Raiders' inner workings. He’s now resorted to analyzing the reports of other journalists while mildly disclaiming the integrity of those reports.
Congratulations to Al Davis and the Raider organization. Your plan is working like a charm. We are all clueless.
PS think G.W. will say something about the state-of-the-raiders in his addresss tonight? Somebody should.
Blanda,
That's a fair opinion. But either way, "I hope so" doesn't exactly give me confidence that he will in fact be here next fall. And it doesn't exactly agree with what Hererra is saying.
I think we can all agree that SOMETHING is going on, and it aint good.
And Al Davis approaches the podium with (TBD) at his side...(hopefully soon) The suspense is killing me.
Will it be Kiffin? Lofton? Saunders? Art Shell & Tom Walsh? Nothing would surprise me anymore... What a circus.
Psycho