Comments on Raider Take: Zero Sum Game

I'll back you up even more than that, H. After Bu...

2008-02-14T10:37:00.000-08:00

I'll back you up even more than that, H. After Burgess' first year everyone was screaming, "Get the man a new contract!" Well, sure. What did he have? Something like 16 sacks that first season with us. Then it dropped to like 8 or 9 in 2006, and he was out of the line up for much of 2007 while we were all discussing how ineffective he seemed to be against the run. But right after 2005, most folks around here were saying that Al ought to give the man top five money.

FARGAS!Psycho

2008-02-14T10:03:00.000-08:00

FARGAS!

Psycho

H said…NYRaider,My point on Fargas was if he had f...

2008-02-14T09:49:00.000-08:00

H said…

NYRaider,

My point on Fargas was if he had finished as a top fiver without the injury, would he have deserved top five pay. The wording didn't match my thoughts.

The other side of the coin on Asomugha is suppose he had renegotiated and gotten a nice signing bonus that counted against the cap for, say, five years after one breakout year. Then he went into the tank and got lit up. What would the Al detractors be saying then? The real proof of his skills will if we get another top corner where the other team will be forced to throw in his direction more that 2-3 times a game.

As for re-signing Burgess and Asomugha early, that’s probably fine, but I am not a fan of it. Especially after only one big season. There are just too many one season wonders. The name Larry Brown comes to mind along with Desmond Howard. Besides, once you start re-negotiating one, everyone wants to get in line.

Blanda,

Thanks for backing me up on the interceptions/draft position.

H

Calico, the Raiders had severe cap problems at the...

2008-02-14T09:00:00.000-08:00

Calico, the Raiders had severe cap problems at the time Kiffin was hired, but the Raiders changed over more personnel than any team in the league. At that time the Raiders had neither the time, nor the cap space to diddle with players they intended to keep, already under contract. Most teams, including the Raiders, refuse to conduct negotiations with signed players during the course of the season. In fact, many players refuse to negotiate during the regular season.

And while your telling me what a great season Nnamdi had 2005, I remember it a bit differently. While many felt Nnamdi was somewhat effective, his lack of interceptions (0 interceptions) was put forward as being evidence that he was either a) a bust, or b) drafted way to early.

However, I have been a supporter of Nnamdi's since he got here, and was one of the first to identify him as a "shut down corner." I'll go beyond that and say he deserves top five money, and he may soon deserve #1 money. The other thing I know about Nnamdi is that he works very hard for his money.

nyraider, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the Raiders could have got that quality on the cheap if they'd just negotiated sooner? Is that what you're attempting to back up, Calico? I don't think we should have Nnamdi on the cheap. I think he should be dealt with with respect, and he should be paid what he's worth. He will be, and that is what will keep him here for the long term.

Are you saying tagging him isn't cost effective? Well, that's not really the point is it? You don't tag someone to save money. You tag someone to keep him there until you can get his signature on a long term contract. The exclusive tag is issued to tell other teams, "keep your hands off, we're still working out a contract."

And let's be specific. Calico and nyraider are slipping back and forth between elements of the two different tags. I've said, repeadedly, that Nnamdi must be issued the "exclusive" tag. The non-exclusive tag is the fastest way to lose him. The non-exclusive tag would just be stupid.

But here is something even more stupid. A mediot challenging Al for attempting to dump Fargas on the very day they announced Fargas was re-signed.

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/21284.html

Gary said: "I'm pretty sure the Raiders had like N...

2008-02-14T07:44:00.000-08:00

Gary said: "I'm pretty sure the Raiders had like NO cap space last season."

You are pretty sure, huh? Last time I checked the Raiders payroll for 2007 was a total of $90.8M. The salary cap for 2007 was $109M? You do the math Gary.

(The salary cap for 2008 is $116M.)

H- "He has gone from "Shouldn't have been drafted ...

2008-02-14T07:01:00.000-08:00

H- "He has gone from "Shouldn't have been drafted where he was," to "Bust", to "Gotta pay top five money." He probably deserves it now, no argument. But, he didn't until now."

That's exactly the point... why did the Raiders wait until now?

You guys are all providing reasons why Nnamdi didn't deserve top pay, yet you acquiesce to paying him now. Why? Because the Raiders have left themselves no choice in the matter.

So we can all agree that “it is what it is;” but IMO, it didn’t have to be.

H- I don’t believe the Fargas example is relevant. As Calico Jack points out, Nnamdi played in almost every game since he turned pro, showing marked improvement with every year. Fargas only played this year, and was injured. How is that relevant?

Gary- I don’t have the numbers, but my understanding is that the Raiders had plenty of cap space last year. Does someone have a ballpark figure for us?

I think I remember some of you guys last year on the re-sign Burgess and Nnamdi bandwagon. Both guys were underpaid, and we wanted to see both get long-term contracts. That seemed smart then and, in hindsight, it still does. What happened?

H said...NYRaider,True, I did say some thought Aso...

2008-02-14T05:07:00.000-08:00

H said...

NYRaider,

True, I did say some thought Asomugha was a bust before 2006. I also remember on draft day he was described as a reach where he was drafted. Al Davis was criticised roundly for the pick.

I also made the point that you don't pay top five money based on a single season.

Based on that logic Fargas, who just signed and led the team in all purpose yards, deserves a top five contract. He only became the starter mid way through the season but put up better numbers than many who started the entire season.

If not for the injury he very well could have been a top five rusher. Should he also get top five pay?

Asomugha may have had a decent 2005, but when it comes to corners every one is enamored with interceptions. Which he didn't have.

He has gone from "Shouldn't have been drafted where he was," to "Bust", to "Gotta pay top five money." He probably deserves it now, no argument. But, he didn't until now.

Scorpio,

Don't rule McFadden out. Rhodes salary is not guaranteed. And, we all know how Al loves to throw away picks on big names.

Gary,

The silence on Brayton is because of all the people are comatose from all the celebrating. Also, they're stunned Al didn't jump in and extend his contract with a huge bonus.

H

Relax indeed Gary-I have left snow laden Chicago a...

2008-02-14T05:04:00.000-08:00

Relax indeed Gary-

I have left snow laden Chicago after 12 10 and 6 in snow falls over two weeks and then -25 wind chills. I am currently overlooking the caribbean in Playa Del Carmen feeling the ocean breeze, drinking a cup of joe, Raider visor snapped smartly upon my head.

If Fargas stays healthy I can live with him. Was it Jason Jones that said he, Fargas, really is a Raider when it comes to heart and hustle vs. Capt. moss?

Fargas, Bush and Rhodes with another year under the O line's belt and maybe a FA?

I am not so worried about The Run more than I am stopping The Run.

Where's RT?

memdf

I look at the Asum. deal with confidence because A...

2008-02-13T21:37:00.000-08:00

I look at the Asum. deal with confidence because Al has NEVER had a problem signing and KEEPING players he wants to keep to huge contracts.

I don't think it is logical to bitch and moan about Al continually drafting speedy DB's, and then expect his prized speedy DB (whom he drafted three or four rounds too early (who you prolly also bellyached about at the time)) to suddenly be lost to another team.

I guess anything is possible through "crazy Al" glasses.

Asum. will almost certainly sign a substantial and lengthy contract with the Raiders over time. Relax folks. It's kinda fun!

--Gary

>>>>One more note to Gary: I find it ironic and so...

2008-02-13T21:26:00.000-08:00

>>>>
One more note to Gary: I find it ironic and somewhat comical that you are the one constantly bellyaching ... about other people bellyaching! :}
>>>>

Alas... I am only suggesting BALANCE.

That can't be that hard, can it? If somone is pound-your-fists bitching that Brayton is on our roster, one would think his leaving would draw more than complete silence? Maybe it's just me?

[shrug]

To each their own, I guess...

-gary

>>>>I’m just saying a little foresight could have ...

2008-02-13T21:20:00.000-08:00

>>>>
I’m just saying a little foresight could have gone a long way to saving some money and, at the same time, providing good will to a franchise quality player (and a hell of a nice guy).
>>>>

Are you under the impression that the NFL is suddenly not under cap restraints or something? How was he supposed to be signed to a contract that gave him 9 million dollars a year last year? I thought we were under severe cap problems and expecting to sign a number one QB pick?

---Gary

>>>>In simplest terms, an extension would have bee...

2008-02-13T21:07:00.000-08:00

>>>>
In simplest terms, an extension would have been a good business and football decision. Identifying your cornerstone players and locking them up to long term deals BEFORE they test the FA market is shrewd and sound.
>>>>

I'm pretty sure the Raiders had like NO cap space last season. This season they have lots. Kinda hard to give him something they didn't have, unless you are suggesting it would have been better to give him a signing-bonus only contract last year, and roll the dice?

--gary

OH CRAP! Farg-ass is STAYING!dang. there goes mcfa...

2008-02-13T20:32:00.000-08:00

OH CRAP! Farg-ass is STAYING!

dang. there goes mcfadden!

Let me delve into the Asomugha discussion. The st...

2008-02-13T19:47:00.000-08:00

Let me delve into the Asomugha discussion.

The statement "Nnamdi didn't show any real value until last year" is categorically false and here's why:

Nnamdi had a good year in 2005 as a starting CB. He recorded a career high 55 solo tackles.

Nnamdi had a pro bowl year in 2006 with a career high 8 INTS.

Nnamdi had a VERY good year in 2007. His mere prescence on the field dictated the opponent's QB rarely threw to his side of the field.

Nnamdi was a 1st round pick who has played in a total of 77 out of 80 games.

3 consecutive years of increased value to the team as a starting CB in the NFL.

BR, you do realize that in 2004, Nnamdi's salary was $460K? In 2005 it was $550K?

I think the point NY Raider was trying to make is that with the way Nnamdi's career has progressed over the last 3 years, clearly the Raiders would have been better to show some forward planning by extending Nnamdi's contract instead of being forced in the position of applying the tag.

At the end of 2005, the organization knew Nnamdi was a solid pro. At the end of 2006, the organization knew Nnamdi was pro bowl caliber. During the 2007 season the organization knew Nnamdi would opt out at the end of the year.

In simplest terms, an extension would have been a good business and football decision. Identifying your cornerstone players and locking them up to long term deals BEFORE they test the FA market is shrewd and sound.

Blanda- I’m not very fond of defending things I di...

2008-02-13T17:59:00.000-08:00

Blanda- I’m not very fond of defending things I didn’t write.

In its simplest terms, I believe the Raiders have placed themselves at a disadvantage by waiting until they are forced to tag Nnamdi before they sign him to a new deal, thereby exposing his market value within the top 3-5 CB salaries in the league. Not good business, IMHO.

H made the point that some thought Nnamdi could be a bust (before 2006). You even suggested that he was overpaid in his first two seasons ("he owes Al Daivs money"). You combine these factors with last year’s meager $800k salary, which you believe Nnamdi was satisfied with, and there’s no apparent reason the Raiders should now have to give him a 1000% pay increase. Yet, here we are.

One thing we should agree on, dude is about to get paid.... not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Well, the Raiders just resigned J.F.Where does DMc...

2008-02-13T17:39:00.000-08:00

Well, the Raiders just resigned J.F.

Where does DMcF fit in? Nowhere.

Mr. Duva

nyraider, I read in many places. It seems like ev...

2008-02-13T13:32:00.000-08:00

nyraider, I read in many places. It seems like every time someone writes an article on tagging Nnamdi, the information is followed up with "currently negotiating with Al Davis." Do you seriously believe that Al is just refusing to negotiate with Nnamdi and is just insisting on the tag? When was the last time you heard of an agent who remained silent when his client had completed a contract and the team was refusing to negotiate a new one (unless the team had already determined they didn't want the player back)?

Also, I guess you're one of the people who believes that a player should get a new contract every year depending only on what they did the year before. What do you do with players who sat out with an injury?

Two off seasons ago I sat here and watched people on this site demand we get rid of the useless Asomugha and say that Davis only drafts CBs that we don't need. Apparently while folks were demanding that he actually deserved a huge raise.

I fully understand, nyraider, that whatever Al Davis chooses to do it will be the wrong approach. And if Davis succeeds it will only be by accident, or somebody else's good attitude that saved the day.

H SaidNate,The explaination is simple. Not every ...

2008-02-13T12:48:00.000-08:00

H Said

Nate,

The explaination is simple. Not every decision is going to be a good one. Arron Brooks is even easier. He was to be a caretaker while Walter waited in the wings. Didn't work out too well. I didn't want them to sign him in the first place. Thought it was a bad move and I was never overly impressed with Walter.

NYRaider,

As for Asomugha, until 2006 some were calling him a bust. Said we wasted a draft choice taking him where we did.

Why should he receive a big raise based on one good year. He's had two in a row. Now we have something to talk about. And, I'm sure they are talking, internally and with the agent, to see what can be done. No sources, just part of the planning cycle.

H

Blanda- Allow me to retort. “...800k for his contr...

2008-02-13T12:01:00.000-08:00

Blanda- Allow me to retort.

“...800k for his contract was more than adequate, and Nnamdi wouldn't have done any better someplace else.”

He had a breakout year in 2006. He was asked to go to the pro bowl. Last time I checked, Pro Bowl CBs make more than $800k.

“Second, Nnamdi didn't show any real value until last year when there was a serious question as to whether good pass defense stats were because the opposition wasn't passing.”

This statement is in perfect contradiction with the facts. You’re saying (rightfully so) that our D essentially had less passes to defend, yet the fact is that Nnamdi managed to haul in 8 interceptions under those conditions. After that, who would have blamed him if he held out last year?

“To say that Nnamdi is being treated unfairly is simply an unsustainable argument.”

Obviously, we have a difference of opinion here. His market value didn’t go up 1000% in one year in which he defended a minimal number of passes (for whatever the reason) and had, what, 2 interceptions. His market value is the product of his breakout season the year before(see above).

”Neither Nnamdi nor his agent seem to feel they have been treated badly or unfairly.”

I’m afraid to ask how you know that.

”Neither Davis nor Nnamdi have conducted any negotiations publicly, but you seem to know exactly where they stand and exactly how Nnamdi should feel about it.”

I never stated I know where they stand. However, I do know the Raiders are about two weeks away from franchise-tagging Nnamdi for a cool $9.5 mil. That didn’t happen overnight. I’m just saying a little foresight could have gone a long way to saving some money and, at the same time, providing good will to a franchise quality player (and a hell of a nice guy).

”Additonally, I guess you know exactly how Al is approaching the negotiations.”

What negotiations? I never said they were in negotiations. Are they?

”Here is what we know. Al and Nnamdi's agent are talking freely to each other.”

I haven’t read that. What’s your source?

19-61 seems to buy all kinds of problems that neve...

2008-02-13T10:44:00.000-08:00

19-61 seems to buy all kinds of problems that never were problems.

Al Davis can't sign players and get them to camp on time (because this has happened for the first time in 45 years). Davis can't manage the cap because they did a bad job of doing so during the Lombardi years, but were exceedingly successful in all non-Lombardi years. Davis doesn't know how to keep his good players happy - I guess because Moss wasn't "happy" and Nnamdi might get a franchise tag that would only increase his salary by 8.7 million dollars in 2008.

And to top it all off, Al allowed BSPN to make up fully unsubstantiated stories. Oh, the horror!

This is what I meant earlier about "leaving room" ...

2008-02-13T10:28:00.000-08:00

This is what I meant earlier about "leaving room" for Nnamdi.

If we're going to wait until after the draft to get serious about a long-term deal we need to make sure we account for Nnamdi in the long-term projected budget.

Once signed, his salary will go from the franchise $9 mil or so THIS year down to whatever. But they better make sure there will be room for him down the road while keeping guys like JaMarcus, LT (TBD), DT (TBD) and so on. All I'm saying is, we have a big contract yet to be negotiated and we can't go nutts with the spending.

I'm just sick of seeing guys like Sands, Gallery & Porter eat up all the long-term cap room.

Oh, and Al you better make it happen, keeping Nnamdi!

Psycho

nyraider, you act as though no team has ever treat...

2008-02-13T10:19:00.000-08:00

nyraider, you act as though no team has ever treated a player so shabbily. Nothing could be further from the truth. To my mind, a contract is a contract.

I wonder if you recall that Nnamdi did not get that great of buzz before the draft? 800k for his contract was more than adequate, and Nnamdi wouldn't have done any better someplace else. Second, Nnamdi didn't show any real value until last year when there was a serious question as to whether good pass defense stats were because the opposition wasn't passing.

To say that Nnamdi is being treated unfairly is simply an unsustainable argument. Neither Nnamdi nor his agent seem to feel they have been treated badly or unfairly. Neither Davis nor Nnamdi have conducted any negotiations publicly, but you seem to know exactly where they stand and exactly how Nnamdi should feel about it. Additonally, I guess you know exactly how Al is approaching the negotiations.

Here is what we know. Al and Nnamdi's agent are talking freely to each other. The Raiders will focus first on UFAs who they want to keep so they don't lose them while negotiating with Nnamdi. In order to get Nnamdi to camp on time, the Raiders will issue a franchise tag if a deal isn't concluded for the next couple of weeks (when we hit the deadline for tagging). If it looks like there will be a deal before camp, Nnamdi simply will not apply his signature until there is a contract. If camp gets here first, Nnamdi can sign the tagging agreement, play for what amounts to the 3rd highest contract at CB, and continue to negotiate a long term deal.

Please explain to me how Nnamdi is being abused here. Explain to me why Nnamdi and his agent don't seem to feel they are being abused. In fact, explain to me why this should really be an issue at all in anything other than a BSPN addled mind.

Blanda- I'm sorry but that makes no sense. Even a...

2008-02-13T09:39:00.000-08:00

Blanda- I'm sorry but that makes no sense. Even a bench player deserves to make Nnamdi's salary his first two seasons, so what's the point?

We're not talking about Lamont Jordan's salary. We're talking about a player that made $800k last year, but whose worth was closer to $9.5 mil. That’s perhaps the greatest inequity between contract salary and worth in the history of all pro sports.

So what did the Raiders do last year as a show of good faith to their soon-to-be franchise player? Nothing. It really defies all logic.

Lucky for the Raiders, Nnamdi is a person of strong character. Most players would have simply held out.

I'm not sure how you can put a positive spin on this, or why you would even try.

So now the Raiders will franchise-tag him, and we can all pray he signs a new long-term deal. That's it.

You're right, nyraider. I think Al Davis is owed ...

2008-02-13T09:05:00.000-08:00

You're right, nyraider. I think Al Davis is owed some of Nnamdi's money back for his first two years here. Instead, in spite of those crummy years, Davis likely has determined to name Nnamdi one of the top players at his position and will likely pay him the 3rd highest NFL salary at CB if he applies the tag.

You see, it's all in the way you choose to look at it. The reality is that Al Davis paid Nnamdi what he was worth when he got here, and he'll pay him what he's worth to keep him here.

Gary, there are two types of franchise tags. Exclusive and non-exclusive. If Davis is going to drop the tag on Nnamdi, it must be the exclusive tag. That means he'll have to pay Nnamdi more, but in recent years teams that have had the opportunity to negotiate with non-exclusive tagged players have included a "poison pill" in the contract that the tagging team cannot possibly meet. If Davis applies the non-exclusive tag we might lose him.

Roller, I've been to Appomattox. In fact my favorite CW story is that the guy (can't remember his name)who owned the farm where the 1st CW battle was fought (at Bull Run) got fed up with all of the fighting, sold his farm, and moved his family far away... to Appomattox - where Lee surrendered to Grant in the man's front parlor.

As said in Ken Burns, The Civil War, "he was the only man in America who could rightly claim that the Civil War began on his front lawn and ended in his front parlor."

Gary, there’s nothing wrong with franchise-tagging...

2008-02-13T06:22:00.000-08:00

Gary, there’s nothing wrong with franchise-tagging Nnamdi. At this juncture, it’s absolutely the right thing to do.

My “bellyache” is the way it’s been handled. It reeks of mismanagement (quantitatively and qualitatively).

Some have argued that Nnamdi is not the type to let circumstance get in the way, and he simply wants to be a Raider. Lucky for us.

Contract or not, how many of us could stomach being underpaid 1000% (repeat 1000%) for a year, playing hard and risking injury, while we wait for the team who underpaid us to franchise tag us? Yeah, it’s a business but, at the very least, it’s also disrespectful to a player you would tag as your “franchise.” Personally, I’d be looking for some retroactive pay.